We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:11 am

Jacek A. Rochacki wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:03 am
rinneby wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:35 am
...But Low-tension strings always works on these lightly built old guitars, at least in my opinion. (I count EJ45 as low-tension).
/J
Following advices of @Ramon Amira some time ago I become sworn aficionado of low tension strings. I have been playing many of them. Surely I know D'Addario J 45, but if we consider them low-tension, then what about D'Addario J 43 ? super-low?
Super low is La Bella 2001 - Low Tension, even lower than Ej43 :)

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kohno No.7
2016 - Juan Miguel Carmona
2016 - Pete Beer

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:21 am

sorry, Jon, I was typing when you have post your input above

- beside J 43 there are other strings in category "low tension" that are considered good if not very good. Some of them:

LaBella 2001 light tension
Augustine; following advices by Ramon Amira I play combination: Augustine Black (low tension basses) and Augustine Imperial (mid tension trebles); other combinations are welcome.

and I remember that what some strings named mid tension may be low tension for others. Keeping this in mind I have been enjoying sounds produced on Jose Ramirez strings medium, all nylon set. They are costly, but sounds...
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

dmax745
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by dmax745 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:15 am

Hi All,

I hope that it's OK to post this message here...

I just wanted to say that I always enjoy reading through the various discussions that take place on this site, dedicated to those who love Japanese classical guitars. I live in Vancouver, Canada, but I've been quite immersed in Japanese culture for my entire life, (as a teacher of traditional Japanese karate for over 28 years, and overall involvement in Japanese martial arts for over 47 years now), and so I've become very appreciative of the dedication that all Japanese craftsmen put into their professions. They tend to be very obsessive about achieving the level of quality that they envision when they start a project such as creating a guitar.

I find that here in Canada, most guitarists don't understand the dedication that goes into making these vintage J-guitars, so they also tend to just dismiss them or undervalue them.

That said, there's a few around who I feel are definitely misleading folks as to how these guitars were valued, (monetarily), in the 1960's and 70's. One person in particular, out of the U.S., sells a lot of Japanese guitars on Reverb and e - b a y via Victor's Guitar Gallery. Now, I can appreciate that he has high regard for J-guitars, as do I, however, he's comparing the prices that these guitars were originally sold at to the salaries of Japanese college graduate of that era. (I've seen some posts on this forum also discussing this). Perhaps Victor, (if that's his name), is simply misinformed, but he claims the figures he provides for comparison are the YEARLY salaries of Japanese college graduates. They are not. In fact, they are more in line with the MONTHLY salaries of Japanese college graduates - not the yearly. Don't be misguided by his claims! Again, maybe he misread his sources where he got his figures, or was misinformed - and it's simply a mistake. But, I feel it is still misleading people as he's constantly using them to promote his guitars.

For example, he claims that the YEARLY salary of a college graduate in 1970 was Y 39,200 - and uses the figure to compare it to the price that some guitar sold for at that time. The MONTHLY salary of a college graduate at the time was actually Y 39,900. Therefore, the yearly salary would have been about Y 478,800. That's a huge difference.

Here are two examples of how he uses these figures, "Real Value of Japanese Vintage Guitars", to sell his guitars:

https://www.e - b a y.com/itm/HAND-MADE-1973 ... 2cde1bdebf

https://reverb.com/item/1272222-made-in ... -condition

I brought this matter up with a friend of mine living in Yokohama, who promptly corrected my misinformation by sending me these two websites showing the actual salaries of the Japanese.

(For those of you who want to find out more...) Perhaps can get some Japanese contacts to help with the translations, but this first site depicts the monthly salaries of the recent college graduate. Scroll down the page to the table of 3 columns. The first column is the year. Second column is the monthly salary of that year. Third column is the amount converted to the modern equivalency.

http://nenji-toukei.com/n/kiji/10021/%E ... B%E7%B5%A6

This second site depicts the yearly salaries of the typical, (more experienced), Japanese salary man - which is a fair bit higher than a person's salary who's just fresh out of college. Scroll down past the graph to see the table. (First column = year, second column = yearly salary). In 1970, the yearly salary then was Y 871,900 - which was substantially higher than what a recent college graduates would have been at the time, (Y 478,800) , but as you can see, these figures have nothing in common with what some people would have us believe...

http://nenji-toukei.com/n/kiji/10022/%E ... 4%E5%8F%8E

Anyways, I did once try to send a message through to the person running Victor's guitar gallery, but can't seem to send a personal message to him either thru e - b a y or Reverb. Please feel free to pass on these informative websites to him, if anybody out there knows him. And I hope this info might help out with any vintage J-guitar evaluations.

Regards,
dmax745

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:52 am

dmax745 wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:15 am
Hi All,

I hope that it's OK to post this message here...

I just wanted to say that I always enjoy reading through the various discussions that take place on this site, dedicated to those who love Japanese classical guitars. I live in Vancouver, Canada, but I've been quite immersed in Japanese culture for my entire life, (as a teacher of traditional Japanese karate for over 28 years, and overall involvement in Japanese martial arts for over 47 years now), and so I've become very appreciative of the dedication that all Japanese craftsmen put into their professions. They tend to be very obsessive about achieving the level of quality that they envision when they start a project such as creating a guitar.

I find that here in Canada, most guitarists don't understand the dedication that goes into making these vintage J-guitars, so they also tend to just dismiss them or undervalue them.

That said, there's a few around who I feel are definitely misleading folks as to how these guitars were valued, (monetarily), in the 1960's and 70's. One person in particular, out of the U.S., sells a lot of Japanese guitars on Reverb and e - b a y via Victor's Guitar Gallery. Now, I can appreciate that he has high regard for J-guitars, as do I, however, he's comparing the prices that these guitars were originally sold at to the salaries of Japanese college graduate of that era. (I've seen some posts on this forum also discussing this). Perhaps Victor, (if that's his name), is simply misinformed, but he claims the figures he provides for comparison are the YEARLY salaries of Japanese college graduates. They are not. In fact, they are more in line with the MONTHLY salaries of Japanese college graduates - not the yearly. Don't be misguided by his claims! Again, maybe he misread his sources where he got his figures, or was misinformed - and it's simply a mistake. But, I feel it is still misleading people as he's constantly using them to promote his guitars.

For example, he claims that the YEARLY salary of a college graduate in 1970 was Y 39,200 - and uses the figure to compare it to the price that some guitar sold for at that time. The MONTHLY salary of a college graduate at the time was actually Y 39,900. Therefore, the yearly salary would have been about Y 478,800. That's a huge difference.

Here are two examples of how he uses these figures, "Real Value of Japanese Vintage Guitars", to sell his guitars:

https://www.e - b a y.com/itm/HAND-MADE-1973-RYOJI-MATSUOKA-No-50-AMAZING-RAMIREZ-STYLE-CLASSICAL-GUITAR-/192704929471?hash=item2cde1bdebf

https://reverb.com/item/1272222-made-in ... -condition

I brought this matter up with a friend of mine living in Yokohama, who promptly corrected my misinformation by sending me these two websites showing the actual salaries of the Japanese.

(For those of you who want to find out more...) Perhaps can get some Japanese contacts to help with the translations, but this first site depicts the monthly salaries of the recent college graduate. Scroll down the page to the table of 3 columns. The first column is the year. Second column is the monthly salary of that year. Third column is the amount converted to the modern equivalency.

http://nenji-toukei.com/n/kiji/10021/%E ... B%E7%B5%A6

This second site depicts the yearly salaries of the typical, (more experienced), Japanese salary man - which is a fair bit higher than a person's salary who's just fresh out of college. Scroll down past the graph to see the table. (First column = year, second column = yearly salary). In 1970, the yearly salary then was Y 871,900 - which was substantially higher than what a recent college graduates would have been at the time, (Y 478,800) , but as you can see, these figures have nothing in common with what some people would have us believe...

http://nenji-toukei.com/n/kiji/10022/%E ... 4%E5%8F%8E

Anyways, I did once try to send a message through to the person running Victor's guitar gallery, but can't seem to send a personal message to him either thru e - b a y or Reverb. Please feel free to pass on these informative websites to him, if anybody out there knows him. And I hope this info might help out with any vintage J-guitar evaluations.

Regards,
dmax745
Thank you dmax745. This new information is very important! Much appreciated. However, it is also important to understand that this really changes nothing regarding the history or the actual quality of Japanese classical guitars. Also, I doubt that you will get an answer from "Victor" as this would force him to change his sales pitch :)

Again good work and most welcome to this forum.

All the best from Sweden
/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kohno No.7
2016 - Juan Miguel Carmona
2016 - Pete Beer

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

dmax745
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Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:23 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by dmax745 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:38 am

Agreed! J-classical guitars are pretty awesome, and of great value, in my experience! :okok:

-dmax745

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:29 pm

This is Fernando Sor's Opus 60 #2 recorded this morning with my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8, Spruce top, Indian rosewood B&S, with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just one day old. The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .mp3 file below. No special effects were added either during the recording or the editing sessions.

Fernando Sor Opus 60 #2.mp3

You will notice how radically different the sound of this Nobe is when compared with my Matsuoka. It is more open but not as loud. Neverthelesss, it is a pleasure to play with it.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:35 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:29 pm
This is Fernando Sor's Opus 60 #2 recorded this morning with my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8, Spruce top, Indian rosewood B&S, with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just one day old. The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .mp3 file below. No special effects were added either during the recording or the editing sessions.

Fernando Sor Opus 60 #2.mp3

You will notice how radically different the sound of this Nobe is when compared with my Matsuoka. It is more open but not as loud. Neverthelesss, it is a pleasure to play with it.
I like the openness and clarity of the sound. Well done sir!

/J
1964 - Masaru Kohno No.7
2016 - Juan Miguel Carmona
2016 - Pete Beer

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:48 pm

rinneby wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:35 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:29 pm
This is Fernando Sor's Opus 60 #2 recorded this morning with my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8...
Fernando Sor Opus 60 #2.mp3

You will notice how radically different the sound of this Nobe is when compared with my Matsuoka. It is more open but not as loud. Nevertheless, it is a pleasure to play with it.
I like the openness and clarity of the sound. Well done sir!

/J
Thank you, Jon, you are very kind :D. You know, I had D'Addario EJ46FF HT Pro-Arte Carbon, Dynacore Basses strings on it for already four and a half months. With these strings the sound had always been a bit dull, specially the trebles, and getting worse as the time went on. Two days ago I replaced them by Nylon ones, also High Tension (Hannabach 815HT Silver Special Blue) and the dullness got worse. I moved them into my Matsuoka - which had Knobloch strings that were also getting old - and put a new set of Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings in the Nobe. The sound improved quite noticeably, specially the trebles, and is now OK. Indeed, the Knobloch strings are very good, they sound nicely in all my three guitars.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:36 pm

Tomorrow I will upload some pictures of my new Hideo Ida + a little review, it came to Sweden today :)

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kohno No.7
2016 - Juan Miguel Carmona
2016 - Pete Beer

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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James A. Showalter
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:35 am

As are many people who use this site I am a student of classical guitar. To me that means I practice the lessons and improve on my ability to play the instrument. I started late in life to the discipline so I have much to learn. My interest, however, is broader than just learning to play. Learning different aspects of the instrument and an appreciation for the kind of music that is played is also a developmental area for me. Japanese classical guitar is one subset that is high on my list to nurture. So this forum is a go to place for me everyday. Jorge's contribution and discussion about string applications was very rewarding to me. Jon is always providing something interesting. Those are just two regular contributors that I feel I've come to know and appreciate. There are so many others. I just want to express my gratitude to all of the contributors to this forum. I get a lot out of your contributions that is intellectually satisfying.
1972 Morris No. 12
1973 Ryoji Matsuoka, No. 20
1979 Yamaha C300
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

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William Byrd
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by William Byrd » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:48 am

James A. Showalter wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:35 am
As are many people who use this site I am a student of classical guitar. To me that means I practice the lessons and improve on my ability to play the instrument. I started late in life to the discipline so I have much to learn. My interest, however, is broader than just learning to play. Learning different aspects of the instrument and an appreciation for the kind of music that is played is also a developmental area for me. Japanese classical guitar is one subset that is high on my list to nurture. So this forum is a go to place for me everyday. Jorge's contribution and discussion about string applications was very rewarding to me. Jon is always providing something interesting. Those are just two regular contributors that I feel I've come to know and appreciate. There are so many others. I just want to express my gratitude to all of the contributors to this forum. I get a lot out of your contributions that is intellectually satisfying.
Well said James. I concur 100%.
1965 Seizo Shinano No 93
1969 Sakazo Nakade No 1000G
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600
2010 Hiroshi Komori No 35

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:59 pm

So here's my review for the Hideo Ida - 1976, spruce top, Brazilian rosewood back and sides and ebony fingerboard. 650/51 mm scale. No cracks or past repairs.

The first thing that struck me was the build quality - absolutely top notch. At least on the same level as Kohno/Sakurai, but (in a way) more fancy. Model C-20 means 200.000 Yen and the guitar was most likely Ida's top model back then. Action is 4/3 mm at 12th fret with room to go lower if needed and the original tuners works flawlessly. The guitar plays easy and responds fast with a focused and clear sound with a nice midrange. It's more brilliant sounding than my Kono -64, but not quite as deep. I expected the guitar to be kind of quiet and careful, but it is actually more like a Spanish bull (see the rosette). Not in a Ramirez 1A kind of way (as in bold, warm cedar-like), but more sweet and glowing sounding, especially in the trebles. An instrument that dares to stand on it's own. And does so proudly.

For me, this is my best Japanese find to date, expect my current Masaru Kono - 1964. The Hideo Ida surely wasn't cheap, but it was certainly worth it!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Image

All the best from Sweden
/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1964 - Masaru Kohno No.7
2016 - Juan Miguel Carmona
2016 - Pete Beer

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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James A. Showalter
Student of the online lessons
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:52 pm

Jon,
A beautiful guitar. Very nicely presented.
james
1972 Morris No. 12
1973 Ryoji Matsuoka, No. 20
1979 Yamaha C300
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

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martinardo
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by martinardo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:41 pm

Yes, I agree. The obvious care and attention to detail, for example, the purfling and backstrip is very

pleasing. The charging bull and Matador in the rosette is a nice (perhaps jokey) touch. And the carving

on the headstock is impressive. As dmax745 so correctly observes above, "... the dedication that all

Japanese craftsmen put into their professions..." is palpable.

All that is needed now, Jon, is a soundclip of you playing this instrument: perhaps one of your own

compositions such as "05:52" or some other. [and, of course, a full expose´ of string choice,

wood varieties, type of tuners, case assessment, polish level, etc., etc.] :wink:
I'm pink therefore I'm Spam

madrilla
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by madrilla » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:57 pm

Lovely guitar Jon, thanks for sharing. I was actually interested in one of Ida's guitars before I knew who he was. I asked for ID on this guitar in this thread as there was no label. Maybe you saw it:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61666&p=1310448#p1310448

I eventually worked it out from the headstock but the auction was over, by that time.

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