Machine heads

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Echi
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Re: Machine heads

Post by Echi » Wed May 16, 2018 12:45 pm

One vote more for Scheller.
The 3 guitars I usually play have Rodgers, Scheller and Alessi. All tuners play smoothly and precisely but the Scheller are those I find the most precise and smooth of all.
I for one prefer them to Rodgers.
I find very good for the money (in order) the Schaller Grandtune the Gotoh pro and Alessi.
Among the expensive tuners, Scheller are those I find to be a step ahead.

SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm

petermc61 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:53 am
(......................)
I don’t need to define my subjective experience of using them in terms of friction, backlash or anything else that you might think important. They have a smoothness and precision I have not experienced before and are a delight to use. That’s absolutely subjective. I’m happy with that.

Peter
One thing that is not subjective is the gear ratio (given the same friction/ precision in the system). This is the number of teeth on the pinion gear. Higher the better, i.e. the more teeth count, the finer the adjustment when turning the button.

Here's a partial list
Schallers GrandTune, higher priced Der Jung 18:1
Schellers, Sloanes, Gilberts 16:1
Rodgers, Rubner 15:1
Last edited by SteveL123 on Wed May 16, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rojarosguitar
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Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Machine heads

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm

One thing that is not subjective is the gear ratio. This is the number of teeth on the pinion gear. Higher the better, i.e. the more teeth count, the finer the adjustment when turning the button.

Here's a partial list
Schellers, Schallers GrandTune, higher priced Der Jung 18:1
Sloanes, Gilberts 16:1
Rodgers, Rubner 15:1
I'm not sure how you have conceived the idea 'the higher the better'... Why doesn't any maker produce 20:1 or higher? Would be even better.

The cheapest Der Jung tuners I have used were on my Mundo Flamenco guitar and had 18:1, and while it was not bad, it is greatly outperformed by a bit more expensive Der Jung with 14:1. (Correction; I wrote 16:1 but counted again).

I'm not convinced. Because in the beginning of the tuning process you have to overcome the static friction of the string against the nut, it may end up being more difficult to tune properly with 18:1 than with 14:1. I don't think Rodgers would be unable to raise their ratio if they were convinced or if many players would ask for...

Peter is totally right; just try the Schellers and you will see for yourself what he meant...
Last edited by rojarosguitar on Wed May 16, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm

I should have said: given the same friction/ precision in the system, higher gear ratio is not subjective, gives a finer adjustment via turning the button.

Don't know why 20:1 gear ratio has not been made (yet). Maybe due to thinner /narrower teeth is weaker when tooth count increases?

SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:23 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm
(...............)
The cheapest Der Jung tuners I have used were on my Mundo Flamenco guitar and had 18:1, and while it was not bad, it is greatly outperformed by y bit more expensive Der Jung with 16:1.
(.............)
I am curios which Der Jung tuners you are speaking of. What kind of bearings did they use? Did one have ball bearing and the other one did not? Proper installation matters also in how well tuners perform. If the holes in the head stock do not match the tuners, all bets are off.

es335
Posts: 1470
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Location: Germany

Re: Machine heads

Post by es335 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
... Here's a partial list
Schellers, Schallers GrandTune, higher priced Der Jung 18:1
Sloanes, Gilberts 16:1
Rodgers, Rubner 15:1
Not quite right for Schellers, they do have a 16:1 ratio! :wink:

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Machine heads

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed May 16, 2018 4:57 pm

No. both have no ball bearings. The cheaper ones have very plain base-plates, and huge rivets (in lack of better word), so that the plates don't touch the head (or one would have to sink them into the wood). The more expensive ones also no ball bearings, but decorated plates with no visible rivets, the plates are totally flush with the head and they look like cast and not wrought.

I must admit that even the cheapest ones are not half bad, and the other ones are quite alright, apart from a bit unevenness.
FullSizeRenderDelc.jpg
FullSizeRender-1Delc.jpg
FullSizeRender-2Delc.jpg
Both have Der Jung logo inside.
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SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:59 pm

es335 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:50 pm
SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
... Here's a partial list
Schellers, Schallers GrandTune, higher priced Der Jung 18:1
Sloanes, Gilberts 16:1
Rodgers, Rubner 15:1
Not quite right for Schellers, they do have a 16:1 ratio! :wink:
You are right! I will correct my post.

SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 5:58 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:56 pm
(.............)
Peter is totally right; just try the Schellers and you will see for yourself what he meant...
I did try Schellers on a guitar about a year ago. As I recall, I was impressed by how they felt and performed. I'd like to try them again if opportunity arise.

Just saw this on Scheller's site "Worm gear, worm shaft and string roller are ball-bearing mounted". That's 4 ball bearings! Very impressive! Are there other tuners that use 4 ball bearings per string?

es335
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Re: Machine heads

Post by es335 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:30 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm
... Don't know why 20:1 gear ratio has not been made (yet)...
Der Jung made it. Check out DJ426G-PSI tuners! :wink:

SteveL123
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Re: Machine heads

Post by SteveL123 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 pm

es335 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:30 pm
SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:06 pm
... Don't know why 20:1 gear ratio has not been made (yet)...
Der Jung made it. Check out DJ426G-PSI tuners! :wink:
Cool! But those are steel string individual tuners. Is there a 20:1 classical guitar tuner out there?

es335
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Location: Germany

Re: Machine heads

Post by es335 » Wed May 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Not yet but 18:1 had been introduced for steel string guitars first and classical tuners followed later! :wink:

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Machine heads

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed May 16, 2018 9:12 pm

Anyway, steel strings need a higher ratio because of the much higher density
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Machine heads

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Thu May 17, 2018 9:44 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm
petermc61 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:53 am
(......................)
I don’t need to define my subjective experience of using them in terms of friction, backlash or anything else that you might think important. They have a smoothness and precision I have not experienced before and are a delight to use. That’s absolutely subjective. I’m happy with that.

Peter
One thing that is not subjective is the gear ratio (given the same friction/ precision in the system). This is the number of teeth on the pinion gear. Higher the better, i.e. the more teeth count, the finer the adjustment when turning the button.

Here's a partial list
Schallers GrandTune, higher priced Der Jung 18:1
Schellers, Sloanes, Gilberts 16:1
Rodgers, Rubner 15:1
Helpful info, thumbs up!
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Machine heads

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Thu May 17, 2018 9:48 am

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:57 pm
No. both have no ball bearings. The cheaper ones have very plain base-plates, and huge rivets (in lack of better word), so that the plates don't touch the head (or one would have to sink them into the wood). The more expensive ones also no ball bearings...
Doesn't the lack of ball bearing, eventually create problems?
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

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