Can't afford an original Torres?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:32 am

Interesting, vesa. I never thought of tap tuning the sides as well.

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Michael.N.
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:11 am

Don't think he was tap tuning his sides. Some Torres show wild variation in side thickness. I haven't got the Elliot plan to hand but I seem to recall the sides are nearer 1.4 mm - 1.5 mm. I could be wrong on that, I'll have to check. There's also another Torres that I seem to recall that had sides going from around 2 mm down to 1.2 mm with numbers all over the place. That suggests that Torres was taking out the worst of the undulations after assembling the instrument but before binding. It's possible he was that inaccurate before planing them to thickness but I doubt it. It's much more likely to be a pragmatic response to sides that cup and undulate, hence the large variation in side thickness measurements. The general concept is the same, he went thin but not always down to 1 mm thin.
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vesa
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by vesa » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:14 am

No, we do not know if he tap tuned them.
But nevertheless it is quite remarkable how the sound (taptone) changes when coming close to 1 mm.
Like I feel it difficult to call it at that point ¨a board to sides¨ and would rather call it a blade or leaf or sheet or something like that.
Sheldon Urlik collection has 4 Torres their sides are from 0.9 to 1.3, but they are only measured at one point.
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

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Michael.N.
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:46 am

You have to be careful of seeing tone in everything. Much of the time there are pragmatic reasons for why these things are the way they are. Anyone who has bent ribs over a hot iron knows that it's much easier (less waste) when the ribs are thin. Try bending rosewood at 2.5 mm's and you will quickly realise that things get rather difficult. If he did work entirely free form then that is another good practical reason why he went thin. I know it doesn't fit the over romantic 20 th century notion of Torres very carefully and painstakingly tuning every tiny aspect of the guitar. You must also understand that these were working luthiers, trying to get the job done in order to put bread on the table in an age which could be rather austere. Personally I think any tuning of the ribs is on the side of fantasy.
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petermc61
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by petermc61 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:01 am

I think this just goes to show Torres had poor quality control. He would never get a job making factory guitars nowadays. I doubt any of his guitars ever sounded any good other than by chance.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:11 am

Haha, that could start a flame war :-)

It's akin to comparing Bream to Williams, the one with a flawed technique but a genius touch, the other with a perfect technique. I'll say no more :-)

bushweek
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by bushweek » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:40 am

petermc61 wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:01 am
I think this just goes to show Torres had poor quality control. He would never get a job making factory guitars nowadays. I doubt any of his guitars ever sounded any good other than by chance.
:lol:

Although i am also heartened to learn from the wider discussion that some of the ‘design features’ on my earlier builds are actually closer to an original Torres than those expensive modern flawless copies ;)

Michaeln- I think it was u in another thread who posted that Torres used to stick pages of paper to the sides and cover them in hide glue to stiffen the sides ... so it seems he may have been similarly concerned about their strength?

To the OP - thanks for sharing this clever idea - im glad it worked out so well

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acmost9
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by acmost9 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:55 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:11 am
Haha, that could start a flame war :-)

It's akin to comparing Bream to Williams, the one with a flawed technique but a genius touch, the other with a perfect technique. I'll say no more :-)
Too late...the deed has been done. :)

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acmost9
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by acmost9 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:01 am

As a side note sorta connected. I picked up a Cordoba Flamenco model F7 a few weeks ago, it's a horrible sounding guitar, plays good, frets aren't sticking out the sides, looks nice, sounds awful and I am not an anti Cordoba guy. I've had a few - I have no problem with their guitars, I like a bunch of 'em, just not this one so it's going back.

kervoas
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by kervoas » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:36 pm

Can't afford a Camps Concierto Negra Amazonia either.
I'm just wondering how Rob's wife chose this particular model. Was any sort of hint dropped before the birthday perhaps ? I'll give the method a try, but reckon the best I can hope for is a set of strings.
“The only escapes from the miseries of life are music and cats”
Albert Schweitzer

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Well, she said she wanted me to play Tárrega again, but not on the 10-string (which she loves for Renaissance music), and was willing to buy a guitar for my 60th birthday. She gave me a budget, and I made up the shortfall. I said I'd like to buy Simon Ambridge's copy of Torres's "La Invincible", but that's £10,500!! I looked at other Torres models from other makers, and decided I wanted to go a different route by adapting a very light flamenco, as an experiment - influenced by Carles Trepat's Conde with gut strings. She likes his playing a lot, so it was decided. After looking around, the Camps seemed the best bet. It turns out I have No.1 of that model, made this year. I'm pleased with the results, though might try other bass strings, and my favourite gut strings, by Damian Dlugolecki...when I can get some.

Here's this afternoon's offering:


kervoas
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by kervoas » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:11 pm

Magical, thank you. Dare I ask how many takes ? Not just 1 I hope, for my own sake.
“The only escapes from the miseries of life are music and cats”
Albert Schweitzer

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:31 pm

One. I got lucky!

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:00 pm

To be fair, there are a few little mistakes here and there, but don't tell anyone!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Stephen Faulk » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:21 am

I've been telling people this for like twenty years. Lol
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

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