wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
wombosi
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wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by wombosi » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:46 pm

I have Bogdanovich's book, and have seen Pablo Requena's videos on making herringbone.
The two use quite different approaches. I'm wondering how you all approach the task?
I've wasted a lot of veneer!

Considering adding the wheat detail around the existing diamond motif. Thoughts?

Thanks.
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Last edited by wombosi on Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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geoff-bristol
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Re: Rosette guidance

Post by geoff-bristol » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:09 pm

Wheats are a pain to make - use plain rings !
By all means make some wheat purflings - but do them first, then decide what do do with them - they are more fun that way !

wombosi
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Re: Rosette guidance

Post by wombosi » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:31 pm

geoff-bristol wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:09 pm
Wheats are a pain to make - use plain rings !
By all means make some wheat purflings - but do them first, then decide what do do with them - they are more fun that way !
Thanks Geoff.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. There has been much gnashing of teeth so far and loads of wasted veneer trying to make herringbone. I don't even like the look of it all that much.

You think plain rings are the best bet to finish off my diamond theme?

wombosi
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Re: wheat/herringbone

Post by wombosi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:19 am

Also, when building rosette elements directly into the soundboard, how much thickness do you allow for glue?
For example, I had a trench about 3.6mm wide and was struggling to get plain rings into it tightly.
It seemed that I needed to allow roughly .10mm for slightly watered down glue, and even then it was a major wrestle getting it into the trench.

How do you guys go about installing plain rings of veneer into a trench?

Thanks!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:24 am

You'd think guitar making is judged by wheat purfling by the way it gets included in rosettes so often. It's really boring. IMO.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

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Michael.N.
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Re: wheat/herringbone

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:52 am

wombosi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:19 am
Also, when building rosette elements directly into the soundboard, how much thickness do you allow for glue?
For example, I had a trench about 3.6mm wide and was struggling to get plain rings into it tightly.
It seemed that I needed to allow roughly .10mm for slightly watered down glue, and even then it was a major wrestle getting it into the trench.

How do you guys go about installing plain rings of veneer into a trench?

Thanks!
We all have digital calipers these days. Your 0.10 mm needs increasing to 0.2 mm or 0.3 mm. Brush glue over the lines once in situ and hammer (as in hammer veneering) the lines.
Alternately wet the veneer, let dry. Very lightly sand with a fine grit - 600G. That way they won't swell as much.
Your rosette will look better without any fancy wheat or herringbone etc. Maybe contrasting lines will do it. It has large design elements, kind of minimalist looking, no need to detract with fussy details. There's a lot 'right' about that rosette IMO.
Historicalguitars.

Stephen Faulk
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:39 pm

Yeah, I like the greyness, half tones, it's nice.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

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geoff-bristol
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by geoff-bristol » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:50 pm

You also need to be careful to assess what thickness you have left on the top to plane back. ie once the rosette is placed that side has to be face side - so make sure you have no dings etc that cannot be easily planed out without going too far into the meat of the rosette. You also need to be able to thickness the plate from the back - without exposing the rosette !

wombosi
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by wombosi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:19 pm

geoff-bristol wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:50 pm
You also need to be careful to assess what thickness you have left on the top to plane back. ie once the rosette is placed that side has to be face side - so make sure you have no dings etc that cannot be easily planed out without going too far into the meat of the rosette. You also need to be able to thickness the plate from the back - without exposing the rosette !
Thanks! I'm working on that now. Had one semi deep nick, maybe 1mm. I started the rosette with a bout 3.5 thickness left to the top.
Hoping I can pull this off.

I'll upload a photo of the finished rosette soon. I wound up doing simple bands around the diamonds.

wombosi
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by wombosi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:06 pm

So here's the finished rosette:
rosette finished.jpg
I know it's not the most exciting rosette in the world and I'd probably do it very differently on guitar #2, but I think for my first guitar I can live with it and enjoy it.

I'm down to about a uniform 3mm. Tricky now because if I take much more off the top I may break through the diamonds. If I remove almost anything off the bottom I may break through to the bottom of the rosette. I'm aiming for a top thickness of 2mm.

Thanks for the feedback.
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wombosi
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by wombosi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:38 pm

Sure enough: Disaster.
Pretty sure I'll be buying another top and starting from scratch.
rosette fail.jpg
I liked the diamonds but I didn't like the rosette as a whole anyway.
That's a not great feeling to be starting an instrument with, with so much work ahead.
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Steve O
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by Steve O » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:07 pm

I like the look of wheat/herringbone. I followed Bogdanovich's method, and it used a boat-load of veneer and took a lot of work. The stick made enough wheat for about 10 guitars (and I was only making one), but it looked great when it was done.

Plan ahead with your trench and rosette thicknesses! If you install the pieces slightly proud of the top, then plane or scrape flush you should be okay. Tolerances are pretty tight, but with sufficient attention you shouldn't break through - but planning ahead is the key!

The underside of the rosette area is usually reinforced with a patch around the soundhole. This would cover up and strengthen if you happened to expose the underside of the rosette if removing material from the underside of the top.

Following Bogdanovich, I installed the rosette one piece at a time slightly proud of the top, scraped flush, then cut and installed the next piece. Each piece was installed dry and then flooded with cyanoacrylate to glue in place. I sealed the top with shellac before starting the rosette and never had a problem with cyanoacrylate staining the surrounding wood.

Looks like you had a fair number of dents and dings in the top. I had a few also, all of which were easily steamed out before final sanding.

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Steve Ganz
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by Steve Ganz » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:50 pm

Planing damage? Sanding or scraping may help avoid that. Or a well tuned and sharpened blade.

Check this out, Wombosi... Depending upon the current thickness of the top, you may be able to save this top by first leveling everything,(completely) and inlaying another rosette.
Steve

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Pat Foster
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by Pat Foster » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 pm

wombosi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:38 pm
<snip>That's a not great feeling to be starting an instrument with, with so much work ahead.
Better than with a lot of work behind, like ruining a top after the guitar comes off the solera. This I know.

We've all been there. If there's a next time, it will seem like less of a disaster.

wombosi
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Re: wheat/herringbone/rosette feedback

Post by wombosi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:23 pm

Pat Foster wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:02 pm
wombosi wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:38 pm
<snip>That's a not great feeling to be starting an instrument with, with so much work ahead.
Better than with a lot of work behind, like ruining a top after the guitar comes off the solera. This I know.

We've all been there. If there's a next time, it will seem like less of a disaster.
That is very true indeed! Thanks for the comfort.

I wonder if I can't salvage this sound board. It's 3mm thick. Route out the entire rosette and start over? Maybe route a 1mm deep channel, then shave the final 1mm off the back side?

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