NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Mr.Rain
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Mr.Rain » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:19 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:09 pm
Mr.Rain wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:06 pm
hi Rob

this guitar is labeled for export but in reality is a valencian made guitar . It very similar to Pau Lisart,and Senchordi hermanos,Salvador Ibanez...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7JSm67figD4CjeuY6

I collect Valencian guitars(the second one by the left is a "la madrilena" too)
I also said it was Valencian (does no one listen to me?) :roll: :lol:

Nice Madrilena you have there, but without the tornavoz...

Hi Rob, I meant that it is as you said for sure Valencian, probably made by Ibanez,Senchordi or Lisart[

Also that this is my hobby (Valencia guitars,had a lot,still too many),I have a couple friends who are collectors too (focused in Valencian guitars,compulsive collectors)

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Guitar-ded
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Guitar-ded » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:23 pm

Nice little find you got there and at a price you couldn't pass up too.

Regarding the maker, I looked him up in Jose Romanillos' book The Vihuela de Mano and the Spanish Guitar, a dictionary of the makers of plucked and bowed musical instruments of Spain (1200 to 2002) and Garcia, Antonio Carlos is in there, (page 136 for anyone who cares).

All it says about him is:

Details of the label in a guitar. Collection of Felix Manzanero, Spain.
"La Madrilena."
Antonio Carlos Garcia,
Fabrica de Guiarras y Bandurias, (sic)
Madrid.


That's all it says but at least you have something in common with Felix Manzanero.
Oh, and that is a deep tornavoz on there.
Getting better bit by bit, day by day.

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spanishguitarmusic
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:26 pm

Very nice looking guitar and it sounds good! Thank you for sharing the video and pictures!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Stephen Faulk » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:24 am

Great story and fitting for your taste and style.
Looks very much like a 'trade' instrument, I read the part where you think it's Valencia. I think so too. A trade instrument
means it was made in a production facility by order from a merchant, the violin world has a lot of trade instruments form the late 1800's made in various places in Germany and Austria for example. Valencia for Spanish guitar trade instruments. Sears Roebuck in America did the same thing, bought from fabricators that built certain models to be labeled by the vendors who bought them in quantity.

That the original tornavoz is pretty cool, but it makes me next question difficult...I'd like to know how they braced it. You have to make special lights and mirrors to peak under the brass cup to do that. Oh well, some things are better as mysteries.

I don't mind the bling, as you say is tarnished down a few notches. The guy who brought it around was very kind and enlightened to pass it along to a real player who will use it, rather then milk every last euro out of it, which never helps music.

Does the tornavoz have any contact with the back via small props of wood?
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

ernandez R
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by ernandez R » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:04 am

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:24 am
Great story and fitting for your taste and style.
Looks very much like a 'trade' instrument, I read the part where you think it's Valencia. I think so too. A trade instrument
means it was made in a production facility by order from a merchant, the violin world has a lot of trade instruments form the late 1800's made in various places in Germany and Austria for example. Valencia for Spanish guitar trade instruments. Sears Roebuck in America did the same thing, bought from fabricators that built certain models to be labeled by the vendors who bought them in quantity.

That the original tornavoz is pretty cool, but it makes me next question difficult...I'd like to know how they braced it. You have to make special lights and mirrors to peak under the brass cup to do that. Oh well, some things are better as mysteries.

I don't mind the bling, as you say is tarnished down a few notches. The guy who brought it around was very kind and enlightened to pass it along to a real player who will use it, rather then milk every last euro out of it, which never helps music.

Does the tornavoz have any contact with the back via small props of wood?
My first though too was, wonder how it's braced inside etc?

I was under the impression that a tornavoz was removable with a key or somthing like that?

Regardless seems to have found a good home. Thanx for sharing.

HR
I hate sanding wood or anything else for that matter I just happen to be good at it...

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:51 am

Mr.Rain wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:19 pm
Hi Rob, I meant that it is as you said for sure Valencian, probably made by Ibanez,Senchordi or Lisart[

Also that this is my hobby (Valencia guitars,had a lot,still too many),I have a couple friends who are collectors too (focused in Valencian guitars,compulsive collectors)
I can understand how it could become a hobby - they are interesting guitars. And thanks for the names of Senchordi and Lisart, both new to me.

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:53 am

Guitar-ded wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:23 pm
That's all it says but at least you have something in common with Felix Manzanero.
I wonder why Manzanero would have a trade guitar?

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:54 am

spanishguitarmusic wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:26 pm
Very nice looking guitar and it sounds good! Thank you for sharing the video and pictures!
Thanks. My pleasure.

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:15 am

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:24 am

That the original tornavoz is pretty cool, but it makes me next question difficult...I'd like to know how they braced it. You have to make special lights and mirrors to peak under the brass cup to do that. Oh well, some things are better as mysteries.

Does the tornavoz have any contact with the back via small props of wood?
No special lights or mirrors, I'm afraid, Stephen, but here are a few new images of the tornavoz. You can see that it is attached with rivets! And there is no connection with the back.
IMG_20190224_080114-816x460.jpg
IMG_20190224_080147-816x460.jpg
IMG_20190224_080147-816x460.jpg
PS I can't see why the second image appears twice, and i can't seem to edit it out. Oh well...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Julian Ward
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:15 am

What a lovely sweet, intimate sound. Very nice Rob, enjoyed your playing too.
Classical guitar teacher

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:28 am

Cheers, Julian.

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sxedio
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by sxedio » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:33 am

Guitar-ded wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:23 pm
Regarding the maker, I looked him up in Jose Romanillos' book The Vihuela de Mano and the Spanish Guitar, a dictionary of the makers of plucked and bowed musical instruments of Spain (1200 to 2002) and Garcia, Antonio Carlos is in there, (page 136 for anyone who cares).

All it says about him is:

Details of the label in a guitar. Collection of Felix Manzanero, Spain.
"La Madrilena."
Antonio Carlos Garcia,
Fabrica de Guiarras y Bandurias, (sic)
Madrid.
Thanks, that is very interesting info. When did the company move from 'Guitarras y Bandurrias' to 'Guitarras y Mandolinas'? The spanish estudiantina format became a hit internationally around 1878-1879, then the italians latched on the the fashion and while the name 'estudiantina' stuck, the spanish instruments didn't, the more international italian mandolin taking over. (see Paul Sparks' "The classical Mandolin" for the details).

So I dare guess that Rob's guitar is from the 1880s, while the Manzanero collection one might indeed be 1870s.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:47 am

I was just guessing 1870s, but what would make it specifically 1880s? If the answer is in your statement, I'm afraid I'm missing the point.

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sxedio
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by sxedio » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:13 pm

My point is that the 'guitarras y bandurrias' label indicates making instruments for the domestic market. 'Guitarras y mandolinas' would be for a more international market that didn't exist before the very end of the 1870s.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

Mr.Rain
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Mr.Rain » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:28 pm

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:24 am


That the original tornavoz is pretty cool, but it makes me next question difficult...I'd like to know how they braced it.....
All of these guitars i have had /have, had 5 bars (all parallel from the sound hole,two of them passing under the top unions).This is valid for the most decorated/higher end ones (salvador and sentchordi/madrilenas,that i have seen)

In some models you could find only 3 bars, normally in the less decorated,having big staples in the union of top pieces (3 pieces tops had 2 unions near the the bridge wings).

Just to mention some guitars I had(in my collection and still have in many cases) with the same template,but different decoration, 3 vs 5 fans sounded near to identical... :mrgreen:

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