NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Leo
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Leo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:04 pm

tateharmann wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:44 pm
Hey Rob!

Super super cool! I love what the tornavoz does for flesh playing. I don't really think this is a second class instrument compared to Torres - it's probably right in the same class, just a lesser known maker. The same thing happens today - you pay $$$$ for a label. Did anyone even want a Smallman before John Williams picked one up? haha - I'm sure they did I'm just being dramatic.
I agree. I have only heard Torres made guitars online with good headphones, but to my ears the quality of sound between this guitar and a Torres is not much, if any. Both are rich in bass and treble, and have that same aged sound.
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RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:49 pm

Cheers, Tate. I didn't know there was a North-American guitars thread,- I'll have a good read of it, and hope someone mentions Ashborn, whose banjos (wood, strung in gut) were of the highest quality.

I played and recorded an original Martin gut-strung guitar, which belongs to Edinburgh University. It's not half as good as his teacher, Stauffer's guitars, but is worth more than the entire collection put together.

As for my Garcia guitar being as good as a Torres - I've played a Torres for 30 minutes or so, and I would say there is definitely a difference in build quality, but the sound is of the Garcia is almost as good. Delighted with it.

One problem I've noticed is that the ivory (?) part of one or two tuning machines rattles when I play loudly. Not sure how to fix that, but I'm guessing it will not be a difficult fix.

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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:51 pm

Leo - in that case, I'll sell you my guitar for 50,000 USD :D Only kidding. You are right, the sound is very close.

Leo
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Leo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:51 pm
Leo - in that case, I'll sell you my guitar for 50,000 USD :D Only kidding. You are right, the sound is very close.
Only a slight bargain at that price. :lol:

But strictly by sound quality, compared to a Torres, it's probably worth that much, great find.
2012 Hippner, Spruce-birdseye maple
1985 Takamine C-132S
2002 Casa Montalvo, Spruce, Ziricote

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tateharmann
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by tateharmann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:35 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:49 pm
Cheers, Tate. I didn't know there was a North-American guitars thread,- I'll have a good read of it, and hope someone mentions Ashborn, whose banjos (wood, strung in gut) were of the highest quality.

I played and recorded an original Martin gut-strung guitar, which belongs to Edinburgh University. It's not half as good as his teacher, Stauffer's guitars, but is worth more than the entire collection put together.

As for my Garcia guitar being as good as a Torres - I've played a Torres for 30 minutes or so, and I would say there is definitely a difference in build quality, but the sound is of the Garcia is almost as good. Delighted with it.

One problem I've noticed is that the ivory (?) part of one or two tuning machines rattles when I play loudly. Not sure how to fix that, but I'm guessing it will not be a difficult fix.
Yes, Ashborn is mentioned in the thread. It's amazing that most of his instruments end up going for less than Martins and they are generally not as well known but from what I hear they are excellent. It's just that his "brand" didn't last as long.

With Torres/Garcia there can be great variance between instruments by the same maker such that an excellent Garcia will be as good or better than an average Torres. Maybe what makes a great maker is consistency then?

As far as the tuning machine rattling - there are some quick things you can check before doing repairs with epoxy or other involved measures. Usually, tuning machines have screws that attach them to the headstock AND screws that attache gears to the rollers. Make sure all of those are snug. If the ivory button itself is loose or cracked you could tried putting a rubber band around it to tighten it up to at least get to the point of being able to play without rattling.

If none of those work I'm sure taking it to a luthier who has experience in restoration would be the best route, but also the most expensive. The cheapest would be the super glue route applied by Mr. Rob himself :) Cheap but risky lol.
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RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:42 pm

No screws on it. Looks like a slotless screw, if you can get such a thing. I have a luthier visiting me on Wednesday (he plays lute, and we will play a duet or two) so I'll get his opinion.

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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:52 pm

Here it is:
IMG_20190225_224544-460x816.jpg
How do I stop the ivory button from rattling?
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tateharmann
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by tateharmann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:12 pm

Are you sure that's what's rattling? You can test by playing an open string and holding each button steady and see when it stops. Looking at the image there seems to be a gap between the tuning machine and headstock. There aren't any screws on the metal face of the tuning machines? Whenever I get a buzz it's almost always a screw that needs tightening. I supposed with an antique instrument it could be the button starting to work loose from the metal rod.
"One should always eat muffins quite calmly. It is the only way to eat them."

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:26 pm

It's definitely the button that is loose. I got my wife to hold it as I played quite loud chords, and the rattling stopped, only to return when she let go. Anyway, I'll let my luthier friend, Bill, have a look at it on Wednesday.

I asked another luthier friend what he thought of it, and he suggested I salvage the high-quality Brasilian rosewood back, and use it for another guitar!

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:48 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:52 pm
...
How do I stop the ivory button from rattling?
If I understand the use of the word word "rattling" here well, then perhaps the reason is too dry environment that caused the ivory button to become loose on the metal axis.

If I understand the problem well, then I would take small ball of cotton of wool, make it wet/moistened (maybe water, maybe oil that should work well with bone/ivory elements) and wrap it around the ivory button. Perhaps the moistened ivory will get enlarged and this "rattling" will be gone.

This is how we have been conducting conservation of elements of ivory (ivory or these made of bone isolators in silver coffe pots etc) that were used in old silver objects.

If I do not understand and I miss the point - please, forgive my poor command of English.
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tateharmann
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by tateharmann » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:07 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:26 pm
It's definitely the button that is loose. I got my wife to hold it as I played quite loud chords, and the rattling stopped, only to return when she let go. Anyway, I'll let my luthier friend, Bill, have a look at it on Wednesday.

I asked another luthier friend what he thought of it, and he suggested I salvage the high-quality Brasilian rosewood back, and use it for another guitar!
Ewww! I don't think he should be your luthier friend any longer!!

Let me know what the fix ends up being for this :)
"One should always eat muffins quite calmly. It is the only way to eat them."

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:14 am

- if, as Rob says above, ...It's definitely the button that is loose...then we have to make it tight. And perhaps what I wrote in my previous post makes sense.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

Stephen Faulk
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Stephen Faulk » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:36 am

I was thinking last night how you landed a guitar probably equivalent to many Torres guitars in quality and type of sound. Record with it, it sounds great. Cut it up for the Brazilian? Stupid, Brazilian is overrated.

Try shimming the loose grip with a slice of paper.

Probably wouldn’t hurt if Bill cleaned it a little and put clear blondefrench polish on it. I like the guitar a lot.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

BellyDoc
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by BellyDoc » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:25 am

BellyDoc wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:36 am
For looking beyond the tornavoz, have you considered a flexible utility endoscope?
RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:29 am
That must be one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked :lol: The answer is I have not.
I suppose I always celebrate the achievement of a superlative, but I do intend it a serious question. I got an inexpensive one for about $30 that wifi's its image to my cell phone and it's found use in a number of settings. It's 8mm diameter. It might just get under the edge of the cylinder.
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RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:56 am

Jacek A. Rochacki wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:48 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:52 pm
...
How do I stop the ivory button from rattling?
If I understand the use of the word word "rattling" here well, then perhaps the reason is too dry environment that caused the ivory button to become loose on the metal axis.

If I understand the problem well, then I would take small ball of cotton of wool, make it wet/moistened (maybe water, maybe oil that should work well with bone/ivory elements) and wrap it around the ivory button. Perhaps the moistened ivory will get enlarged and this "rattling" will be gone.

This is how we have been conducting conservation of elements of ivory (ivory or these made of bone isolators in silver coffe pots etc) that were used in old silver objects.

If I do not understand and I miss the point - please, forgive my poor command of English.

You understand me perfectly, Jacek, and I understand you. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.

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