Tuning machines, cheap vs. expensive

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
jcrants

Post by jcrants » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:29 pm

So, is it BAD if I just drooled on my keyboard?

Those machines are gorgeous!

fingers54

Graf Tuners

Post by fingers54 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:07 pm

I have heard very good things about Graf Tuners but have not been able to speak to someone who actually owns a set. Can you confirm that they
are extremely smooth, very easy to tune and hold the tune exceptionally well?

Also I have heard they are very light.

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chuckinphoenix
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:50 pm
Location: New River, AZ

Re: Graf Tuners

Post by chuckinphoenix » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:01 pm

fingers54 wrote:I have heard very good things about Graf Tuners but have not been able to speak to someone who actually owns a set. Can you confirm that they
are extremely smooth, very easy to tune and hold the tune exceptionally well?

Also I have heard they are very light.
I have a set of Graf Tuners. (See photo in earlier post) They are incredibly smooth. Each one feels exactly alike. Can't say they are any lighter but they are the best I've used. I have a set of Fustero tuners on my Ramirez and there is no comparison.
Chuck
If you ain't the lead dog the scenery never changes.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:43 pm

Speaking of that, I wonder how close Graf is to having a set of Ramirez style Lyre tuners? I'd like to replace the Fusteros on my Ramirez, too. Tuner said they may have them available in March.....

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chuckinphoenix
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:50 pm
Location: New River, AZ

Post by chuckinphoenix » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:45 pm

Sasquatch51 wrote:Speaking of that, I wonder how close Graf is to having a set of Ramirez style Lyre tuners? I'd like to replace the Fusteros on my Ramirez, too. Tuner said they may have them available in March.....
If I had the $$ I'd buy another set of Graf's for my Ramirez. Maybe we could manage a 'package deal' if we could get a few more takers.
If you ain't the lead dog the scenery never changes.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:45 pm

chuckinphoenix wrote:
Sasquatch51 wrote:Speaking of that, I wonder how close Graf is to having a set of Ramirez style Lyre tuners? I'd like to replace the Fusteros on my Ramirez, too. Tuner said they may have them available in March.....
If I had the $$ I'd buy another set of Graf's for my Ramirez. Maybe we could manage a 'package deal' if we could get a few more takers.
That's not a bad idea......Tuner? Are you there? :lol:

fingers54

Graf tuners

Post by fingers54 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:20 pm

If you two are serious about getting some people together count me in,
otherwise I will go ahead and order anyway.

Sasquatch51

Re: Graf tuners

Post by Sasquatch51 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:35 pm

fingers54 wrote:If you two are serious about getting some people together count me in,
otherwise I will go ahead and order anyway.
I'm serious. If Graf has the Lyre tuners available and will give a discount, I'm in.

kshri

Post by kshri » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:57 pm

Don't forget about Alessi tuners, they're also extremely high quality tuners.

Tuner

Lyre Tuners

Post by Tuner » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:01 pm

I am open to the idea of making a special for Delcamp members. If you can get 5 people together, I will make it a priority to develop/produce the Lyre Tuner.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:04 pm

I'm one! Can you give us an idea of the approximate price range?

Tuner

Lyre Tuner

Post by Tuner » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:05 pm

They would be similar to the Torres Model which starts at $300.-

Sasquatch51

Re: Lyre Tuner

Post by Sasquatch51 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:09 pm

Tuner wrote:They would be similar to the Torres Model which starts at $300.-
Sounds good to me.

Tuner

Backlash and friction

Post by Tuner » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:38 pm

Dear Ameede

Your question gets right at the heart of the matter why one wants to spend a few dollars on a quality machine.

Backlash (the amount of free turning on the knob before anything happens) can have many causes, on cheaper tuners they tend to accumulate, with the result that there is a great amount of slack and high friction.

I go to great length to bring backlash to a minimum, often I succeed that there is no backlash at all, yet the gears turn exceedingly smooth. (I refer to Chuck's posting)

This has to do with the overall quality of the machining of the gear and worm. Gears are rated according to AGMA, which stands for American Gear Manufacturers Association. A gear in the cheaper machines will have a rating of about AGMA 5 or 6, a Formula 1 Race car gear has a rating of AGMA 15, which is the pinnacle of gear manufacturing. Graf Tuners gears have a rating of AGMA 14, which is exceptionally high.

In addition, cheap tuners use a) cheap materials (soft steel for the worm and brass for the gear and b) only a helical gear. This gets very technical but a helical gear meets the worm only on a point. A point by definition cannot bear any load. What happens when one applies the string load the worm will work itself into the gear until a surface (the mesh) is created. This of course creates slack or back-lash, and not a smooth surface either.

Graf Tuners on the other hand use the very best materials, Stainless Steel for the worm and a specially formulated Gear Bronze for the gear. These together have superior low friction and excellent wear properties.

Furthermore, the gear is a "fully enveloping gear" which requires extremely accurate alignment between worm and gear but offers in return right from ther start a MESH surface, thus the gear does not run in and will remain virtually without wear for a long time.

If you would like a more in depth explanation of all this go to my web-site http://www.graftuners.com and check out the TECH section.

Best
Tuner

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chuckinphoenix
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Location: New River, AZ

Post by chuckinphoenix » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:12 pm

ameede wrote:I'm curious about the amount of play between the post and the gear. When the string is not pulling on the tuner, is there an expected amount of free turning (of the post) allowed before the post actually turns the gear? If so, how much? Another aspect I have experienced with cheap tuning gears is that there is a grinding feel to them while there is a smooth, determined feel, with more expensive tuning machines. Nevertheless, both have free play between the post and the gears. Does this happen with your tuning machines? Regards 8)
The Graf tuners I have have absolutley no play anywhere. They are very solid once they are installed.
Chuck
If you ain't the lead dog the scenery never changes.

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