Ramirez labels and a question about my guitar

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
maltuna

Ramirez labels and a question about my guitar

Post by maltuna » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:48 am

I've had this guitar since I was . . . 15 maybe? My parents went to spain and when they came back, they had this guitar for me. So the story goes, they actually went into the Ramirez shop while they were there, and bought me a "student guitar". I wrote with a felt pen just inside the soundhole on one of the bracings, "1988".

This was my first "classical" guitar (I borrowed from my teacher before that) and still is the only classical I've ever owned. It is fairly beat up, having made it through my college years, with some dents, scratches (someone once picked it up and played on it with a pick, scratching the finished on the top in just a few strokes before I could yell at them to stop), and I replaced the tuners after one broke maybe 10 years ago.

Anyways, I have toyed with the idea of getting a "nicer" guitar but it seemed the store-bought ones I played that friends had sounded terrible, and the nice ones that my teacher had were thousands of dollars, so I never really looked hard to replace it.

So fast forward to today. I'm reading through the forums here, and people are posting questions about Ramirez guitars, and I am looking at them, and suddenly I realize - maybe mine is a fake ! All the pictures of the Ramirez labels, even for the "estudio" or "E" model guitars are nothing like the label mine has. And the label does not contain a year. Also, the head doesn't look like any of the others (again, even the cheaper, factory produced ones). I have looked at another "student" guitar that was even from the same year (1988) and the label is completely different.

So, I'm attaching pictures . . . one of the label, and a few others, in case anyone can say "ye" or "nay" . . . not that it matters. But I'm just curious if my parents got conned, or if they conned me, or what. The quality may be too poor for any assessment - my apologies, all I have now is a webcam - but if someone thinks they might be able to tell me something, I can try to borrow a real camera and take some better pictures, or show some other parts besides what you see here.

I suppose what I'm wondering is - is this a real Ramirez (I mean, an "estudio" model, made by some other shop for Ramirez), or a fake? And if it's a real "estudio" model, any idea which model? I would imagine it would be the cheapest if it is "real", but I have no idea.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time !
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Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:59 pm

It's real. It's one of the "Rondalla" models. It is basically a student model Ramirez, the back and sides would be laminated, either Indian Rosewood or Mohogany, the top solid Cedar, and the fretboard Ebony.


"Rondalla" is a band of street musicians.

maltuna

Post by maltuna » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:30 pm

Thanks for the info !!

nedim

Post by nedim » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:57 pm

Do not worry about the authencity of your Ramirez. Go to the Ramirez website http://www.guitarrasramirez.com/index-eng.htm where they display the various labels they used since the Ramirez shop first started building guitars (almost). You will find your label on page 2.

Enjoy your Ramirez.

Ramirez 1a Rio

Post by Ramirez 1a Rio » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:16 pm

That Label was usually used in the fifties for estudio guitars. In some special cases they might have hold on to it later on because of old fashioned looks. It might also have been that they kept that special guitar on stock longer but not thirty years. :roll:

I think you should enjoy your real Ramirez! Some proof is that it sounded better than most of the other. Do you or your parents still remember what you payed for it?

I bet you couldn't buy a guitar like that for that money today.

:roll:
Last edited by Ramirez 1a Rio on Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:06 pm

Ramirez 1a Rio wrote:That Label was usually used in the fifties for estudio guitars. In some special cases they might have hold on to it later on because of old fashioned looks. I might also have been that they kept that special guitar on stock longer but not thirty years. :roll:

I think you should enjoy your real Ramirez! Some proof is that it sounded better than most of the other. Do you or your parents still remember what you payed for it?

I bet you couldn't buy a guitar like that for that money today.

:roll:
According to Ramirez, that label is still in use. I guess they are still selling the Rondallas somewhere....I haven't seen a new one in years, though.

klarinet

Post by klarinet » Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:40 pm

Speaking of Ramirez Labels --

Has anyone noticed a new secondary label being used by Ramirez? I was in a Guitar Center in Tampa and played a 2CWE model there. Besides the usual Estudio guitar label that has the 2CWE handwritten on it and the year built, this guitar had a second red-line-framed label below the regular label. I believe this second label stated (I'm not very good with Spanish) that the guitar was reviewed or checked at the Ramirez store address site.

Ramirez 1a Rio

Post by Ramirez 1a Rio » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:55 pm

That's a new strike by Amalia Ramirez. It relates a little to the look of the Labels of the professional Line. Here is an example of a new 4e.

Cheers, ulf
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maltuna

Post by maltuna » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:39 am

nedim,

Thank you for posting that link. However, I've been to the Ramirez site before, and like my past visits, I could not find what you were talking about. It seems I'm a moron when it comes to navigating web sites. In any case, all I could find on the link was some words from Amalia Ramirez, a link to a letter from Segovia, and some information about a book by Jose Ramirez III, but nothing about labels.

Still, I appreciate your posting it - it makes me feel good to think that people are so kind in this world, and I will keep going back to look until I find it :)

And Ramirez 1a Rio,

Thank you for your kind words also. I had heard stories of the labels being "copied" for guitars that weren't real, so I was curious what you more knowledgeable folks would say. In any case, I do really enjoy my guitar - I hope I didn't sound as if I didn't ! If memory serves, I think my dad said he paid $400 for it, plus another $100 for the case.

Anyways, so the story goes, my father and guitar teacher went into the Ramirez shop, and my guitar teacher played several guitars, continuing to ask if they had anything "better". Finally, he settled upon a guitar he liked, and was asked, "do you make your living through playing guitar?" His answer was "no", since he was a medical doctor by trade. Upon hearing this, the shopkeeper (I don't think it was actually a Ramirez family member) said, "sorry, that guitar will only be sold to someone who is more serious about Guitar." So my teacher went across the street to (I forget the name)'s guitar shop, and dropped more-money-than-I've-ever-spent-on-a-car on a concert level guitar. But while they were in the Ramirez shop, my guitar teacher picked out the student guitar for my dad to get for me.

Whether the story is true, or they just made it up to entertain me, I love the guitar !!

:)

Ramirez 1a Rio

Post by Ramirez 1a Rio » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:46 am

It is true that Luthiers have to try to get their best guitars to famous players but that would most likely not happen to a guitar just shown in the shop. They would keep it behind for the right opportunity.

Also the sales man would probably not have kept his job for long if he allways argued that way.

Cheers,

Ulf

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:22 pm

They must have added that 4E extra label in 2006. I currently have a 2005 that doesn't have that. It just has the top label.

By the way, I think the new 125 Anos Anniversary model (based on the "E" series) uses the round blue "Rondalla" label. That guitar looks like it would be a great deal for a good student guitar. It's a solid IR and Cedar Ramirez based on the "E" series Estudio guitars and GSI is selling the thing for $1,999.00 new. I assume it's being built in the Alhambra factory.

klarinet

Post by klarinet » Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:22 pm

to "Ramirez 1a Rio" --

Thank you for posting the pix of the label.

I believe the first two words would translate from spanish as "Designed, Checked, and.....?????......by Ramirez."

Do you know what the third word is.

I'm wondering if Amalia is "labeling" all the student guitars made in the Alhambra factory with this label. Or, just the one's that are actually quality checked in the Ramirez shoppe.

Thanks!!

Jose-Guitarra8a

Post by Jose-Guitarra8a » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:00 am

klarinet wrote:to "Ramirez 1a Rio" --

I believe the first two words would translate from spanish as "Designed, Checked, and.....?????......by Ramirez."

Do you know what the third word is.

Thanks!!
I believe the third word is "Certificada" or certified by Ramirez. It makes sense I guess.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:43 pm

Sasquatch51 wrote:They must have added that 4E extra label in 2006. I currently have a 2005 that doesn't have that. It just has the top label.

By the way, I think the new 125 Anos Anniversary model (based on the "E" series) uses the round blue "Rondalla" label. That guitar looks like it would be a great deal for a good student guitar. It's a solid IR and Cedar Ramirez based on the "E" series Estudio guitars and GSI is selling the thing for $1,999.00 new. I assume it's being built in the Alhambra factory.
Correction: The 125 Anniversary model has a white rectangular label with blue text and a GREEN border. The GH (George Harrison) Model uses the round blue "Rondalla" label.

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