D02 Classical guitar lesson 1

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Jeremy Hickerson
Amateur luthier
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Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Jeremy Hickerson » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:44 am

To Steve again,

I think you are right about the straighter lower finger joints for the rest stroke vs. free stroke. Also, I had missed that Jean-Francois wanted the thumb to also do the rest stroke. What I said applies more to the ima rest stroke against the thumb free stroke, I think. I noticed his hand was standing up straighter than mine in the video and his ima was going back more horizontally (although still a little downward). I have seen in the Segovia short book on technique an angling back of the hand (or at least not standing straight up) for ima rest stroke. I will have to try the simultaneous p and ima rest stroke and see if my technique needs to change for this! I also have found that I can't let my nails get too long or it is difficult to execute the rest stroke. Angling back the hand and more of a downward force can compensate for this some.
Jeremy

Guitarras: 1973 Manouk Papazian (Spruce/Morado), two I have built, and an old Telesforo Julve parlor size

Jack Jarrett

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Jack Jarrett » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:26 am

Here is my attempt at "Que ne suis-je la fougere"
I have found that my longer nails did cause nail drag and buzzing but after trimming I was able to eliminate that for the most part.I found that if I angled my hand I was able to use more flesh, but after viewing Mr. Delcamp video I think this might be incorrect. I read somewhere that concentrating on the string the finger is going to land on rather than the string being played helps with the rest stroke, and for me it does seem to help to play them faster. And like most other posters on this thread, the thumb is the hardest to master, especially those areas where one string seperates the two fingers.
I have seen improvement since starting this yesterday and will hopefully be able to upload videos in the future for better feedback.
Jack
Que Ne Suis-Je La Fougere.mp3
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Dragonbones
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Location: Taibei, Taiwan

Re: D02 - Lesson 1

Post by Dragonbones » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:51 am

Joseph Albert wrote:I agree with Peter, the most difficult is when only one string separates the p and i or p and m. I have to be very delicate or my fat fingers just mute both strings.
Same here, unless I put more string length between the thumb and other finger, and I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be doing that.
drBill wrote:I am finding it a bit of a struggle and haven't progressed to the studies yet - still trying to master "Polyphonie"
Hi drBill, you might want to try going on to the other studies, and then doing a little bit of each, every day. Otherwise you may run out of time to practice the last ones you start on.
Pleasure is spread through the earth In stray gifts to be claimed by whoever shall find. —William Wordsworth

2008 Sergio Huerta concierto,
San Miguel de Allende, Mexico

Charlesoln

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Charlesoln » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:06 am

Jack Jarrett wrote:I have found that my longer nails did cause nail drag and buzzing but after trimming I was able to eliminate that for the most part.I found that if I angled my hand I was able to use more flesh, but after viewing Mr. Delcamp video I think this might be incorrect.
I had the exact same problem/discovery, but instead on trying to get more flesh, I tried to focus on getting just the right amount of nail sticking out to catch the string w/ min. buzz, and realized that I really needed to work on the precision of the movement, i.e. reducing the amplitude of travel of your finger reduces the amount of energy needed to sound the string, allows me to increase the speed of execution while getting even more volume (well, when I manage to hit it "just right"!!!) What makes me believe I'm on the right track is that in the process my right hand has stopped moving all over the place... Still quite a ways to go for me, I'm afraid!! sigh!
On your recording the melody notes are nicely rendered, loud, clear and articulated, excellent job!
Jack Jarrett wrote:I read somewhere that concentrating on the string the finger is going to land on rather than the string being played helps with the rest stroke, and for me it does seem to help to play them faster.
Thanks for the tip, I'm going to try that... :merci:
Jack Jarrett wrote:And like most other posters on this thread, the thumb is the hardest to master, especially those areas where one string seperates the two fingers.
yes, listening to your recording, it sounds like your thumb is still playing really shy, especially since your melody is loud and clear... Maybe you're not digging enough into these bass string, I don't know.. How much flesh are you using on the bass?
W/regards to the difficult part where the thumb is only one string away, I've tried thinkin of it as "twisting" a winged nut open, it helped a little, but I'm still struggling...
And thanks for your recording, it prods me to work harder to avoid from lagging behind... :merci:

GrahamK

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by GrahamK » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:17 pm

Jack Jarrett wrote:I have found that my longer nails did cause nail drag and buzzing but after trimming I was able to eliminate that for the most part. ]
Hi, just how long should your nails be? I have filed my nails to about 0.5-1mm long (with a slight ramp) now and I still can't do the p rest stroke with i+m at the same time.

In the videos, Mr. Delcamp fingers are very perpendicular to the strings, I find if I try this way I get nail drag, then a snap onto the next string. I'm so used to playing rest/free strokes with my fingers at an angle of about 80 degrees. This way I can get a much smoother tone. I guess it's just bad habits that are so hard to correct.

Try again later....

Graham.

ps. well done on the upload!

Irene Tirtajana

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Irene Tirtajana » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:20 pm

Charlesoln wrote:W/regards to the difficult part where the thumb is only one string away, I've tried thinkin of it as "twisting" a winged nut open, it helped a little, but I'm still struggling...
I keep the mental image of snapping my fingers, that seems to help with simultaneous rest strokes. But still difficult to control the sound produced. Just have to practice a lot more, I guess. Played Danse D'Avilla until my SO got sick of it. Heh. :roll:

One thing I kinda have a vague knowing for a long time but now become painfully obvious is that it is soooooo difficult to play a perfect piece with zero mistake. :chaud:

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Dragonbones
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Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Dragonbones » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:12 pm

Irene_T wrote:I keep the mental image of snapping my fingers, that seems to help with simultaneous rest strokes.
Yes; and also aiming for the string(s) the fingers will rest on, with a crisp, controlled motion. Plus keeping the fingernails very short -- I brought mine down to only 1 mm of white for this, otherwise it just seems impossible.
Pleasure is spread through the earth In stray gifts to be claimed by whoever shall find. —William Wordsworth

2008 Sergio Huerta concierto,
San Miguel de Allende, Mexico

RyanDG

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by RyanDG » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:18 pm

Me too I had to chop off my nails quit a bit because of the drag. But I'm getting a much better tone now with the shorter nails.

I also learned to move my thumb more further apart from the i finger, towards the fretboard.

But I'm still having trouble with the 1 string in between. Especially when the fingering is p,i.

Jeremy Hickerson
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Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Jeremy Hickerson » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:05 pm

I have used the angled hand also to play simultaneous rest stroke with i, m, or a and FREE stroke with thumb - this seems to work pretty well. But it does not work well when the thumb is also playing the rest stroke, especially when the thumb is playing the g string and i, m, or a is playing the high e string.

I think this is the whole point of why he wanted the thumb to also play the rest stroke - it forces your hand to stand up taller and for g string against high e, about the only way you can do it is to have your knuckles totally in-line with the strings (as Segovia advocated) and have the fingers and thumb play at angles away from the vertical, making sort of an upside down "v".

Jean F. mentioned that this would allow us to find our best hand position, so I'm thinking this is what he had in mind. I will say that I have developed a different position over the years and with some encouragement from teachers where my knuckles are at a bit of an angle to the strings and my wrist is more relaxed. I am happy with this, but I don't think it works for the p rest stroke against i, m, or a rest stroke where p is playing the g string and i, m, or a is playing the high e.
Jeremy

Guitarras: 1973 Manouk Papazian (Spruce/Morado), two I have built, and an old Telesforo Julve parlor size

Jeremy Hickerson
Amateur luthier
Posts: 625
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:20 am
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Jeremy Hickerson » Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:39 pm

apoyando p. 58 No. 16 where the i and m fingers alternate on the high e string and the p plays the g string is a short exercise that brutally reveals a problem in my rest stroke technique. As a computer programmer I appreciate a simple example that demonstrates a bug in a few lines of code; this is the musical equivalent!

I will keep working on this. I notice that J.F. seems to be attacking the string in the middle of the nail/finger for i and m, rather than near the side where I have been playing rest stroke, and I also think he is bending back the lowest finger joint (closest to the strings) slightly to give with the impact and allow the string to slide past the nail better. The thumb travels on a pivot from the hand joint in an inward arc, with no hand movement.
Jeremy

Guitarras: 1973 Manouk Papazian (Spruce/Morado), two I have built, and an old Telesforo Julve parlor size

Stewart Doyle

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Stewart Doyle » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:31 pm

As I posted earlier, it was quite a shock when I first tried these simple-looking exercises. I reached what I thought was a reasonable standard around 8 years ago but I'm afraid I have rarely played since as I started learning piano. I'm hoping I can rediscover whatever musical ability I had with the guitar through these excellent lessons and supportive environment.
I don't want to be too critical of my first attempts in case it discourages anyone, but I think the idea is to upload the first attempts and then hopefully post some improved versions later! [Apart from the mistakes, I'm not happy with the tone (more flesh less nail I think) but I will work on that!]
So, with one final excuse that this is my first use of Youtube and attachments and with apologies in case you can't see or hear anything, this is what I've managed so far!

[media]https://youtu.be/NxqjoPHDrcs[/media]

[media]https://youtu.be/6BUow6h8kaA[/media]

[media]https://youtu.be/uBmi1FBdLC0[/media]

Thanks

Stewart

Jack Jarrett

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Jack Jarrett » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:05 am

Nice job Stewart!
You are on the right track!I can't play those simple excercises as smoothly as you yet but will keep working and hopefully can post nice videos like yours.I agree that the real benefit from this will be to post our initial attempts, with hopefully a better version by deadline time. This will allow us to see improvement, compare our technique and/or problems with others, and get the necessary feedback from everyone to get better.I find it very easy to get "stuck" and having some encouragement, and new eyes to see my mistakes really helps. Plus, just trying to record a good take has been an added pressure, and I find myself making huge mistakes from trying so hard to do it right! This will only get easier for me as I continue to make recordings and soon videos.
Back to work for me!
Jack

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Dragonbones
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Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Dragonbones » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:06 am

Jack Jarrett wrote:just trying to record a good take has been an added pressure, and I find myself making huge mistakes from trying so hard to do it right!
Ain't that the truth! :lol: I can play the pieces better when there isn't a camera pointed at me. (I'm doing DO2 too, but on the Spanish forum.) Don't worry, it will get smoother with a week of practice. :bye:
Pleasure is spread through the earth In stray gifts to be claimed by whoever shall find. —William Wordsworth

2008 Sergio Huerta concierto,
San Miguel de Allende, Mexico

RyanDG

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by RyanDG » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:33 pm

Hey stewart, good job, the tone is not bad but like you said too much nail.
Also a bit out of rhythm but I'm guessing it has to do with the reststroke ^^.

Stewart Doyle

Re: D02 Lesson 1

Post by Stewart Doyle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:30 pm

Jack Jarrett wrote:Here is my attempt at "Que ne suis-je la fougere"
Que Ne Suis-Je La Fougere.mp3
Hi Jack, Firstly thanks for your kind comments on my attempts and videos. You've done a really nice version of Que Ne Suis-Je La Fougere - I particularly like the way the melody comes out in bars 9/10 and elsewhere. I'm hoping to do that piece too, but it's trying to get the damping right without causing everything else to fall apart! As you say, back to work.......

Stewart

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