D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

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Mark Bacon
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Mark Bacon » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:10 am

DonnaSutliff wrote:Goran, that Paganini was very good. Here is a question; did anyone try Aguado, lesson 19, p.58, for example? Here there are 16th notes that theoretically all need to be damped, but how? I have always used a "free stroke" with this piece, letting the notes just ring through. I never had a teacher who instructed about damping treble notes, just the basses (with the thumb). So this Aguado piece should sound staccato? (Sorry, Coen, I did not download your stuff yet. It takes too long!)

Donna,
You're playing it correctly. Arpeggio studies are meant to ring out, it's just a 'convention' to notate it the way we do, I think for ease of reading. Any notes meant to be played staccato would likely have dots over them. The asterisks in M Delcamp's transcription are simply a reminder to damp the open string from the previous measure to keep the melody in the bass sounding nice and defined. And speaking of the stem-down melody notes, be sure to give them a little extra 'oomph'. I often like to play the stem-down melody line from an arp study like this by itself to get it in my head.

While we're on the topic of damping especially with regards to the Paganini piece, I've got a question. Are we all in agreement that the great pains we're all taking (myself included!) in the damping only applies to the bass strings? The melody shouldn't be staccato, right? I figure it this way since it's a waltz and all and might have been written to be danced to (even though it's so short). Remember all of our discussions of 'bounce' from the last lesson? :casque:

I've enjoyed watching everyone so far and will come up with some comments when I can. I'd like to say that my own postings will be up soon but I'm on a string of midnight shifts this week and so I'm not making much progress. Need a few more days!!-yawn.

Mark

Jack Jarrett

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Jack Jarrett » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:29 am

:bravo: Goran!Nicely played.

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Coen van Dijk
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Coen van Dijk » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:49 am

Hi all
I also find I am a bit confused about when to damp. It was clear to me that open strings, wether they are bass notes or trebbles, must be damped when they are at their end of their value. Always I thought... :?:
I am trying a bit of D04-3, and mr Delcamp put a very nice (but for me with probably unreachable speed) arpeggio study in it. It is made up out of 16th notes only. However, he does not damp any notes when playing, except for a few basses that were ringing from a previous bar. However, he suggests studying the piece with always three fingers on the string, which means you have to damp each note. So might it be a study thing to denote it like 16th notes?

Also in Brian Borus March, there is less damping going on then the note values are suggesting. For instance in the second part of the song if I watch mr Delcamp closely.

In D03-1 mr Delcamp suggest the following about damping:
These techniques are essential in polyphonic playing. Guitar playing is unique in that we must stop the resonances, in particular those of the open strings. Without these string damping techniques, polyphony is blurred by dissonance.
It seems we have to damp especially when dissonance is created. So, I guess I have to learn recognise dissonace..... :oops:

It would be nice to hear more opinions about when to damp and when you can just let them ring.

AT mark: I am not sure if damping is equal to playing staccato. You can also damp and still play legato. Whit staccato you damp before the next note rings. With legato you damp simultaniously to making to next note ring. Or so I think...

Mark Bacon
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Mark Bacon » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:41 pm

Coen van Dijk wrote:Hi all
I am trying a bit of D04-3, and mr Delcamp put a very nice (but for me with probably unreachable speed) arpeggio study in it. It is made up out of 16th notes only. However, he does not damp any notes when playing, except for a few basses that were ringing from a previous bar. However, he suggests studying the piece with always three fingers on the string, which means you have to damp each note. So might it be a study thing to denote it like 16th notes?
Coen,

I'm pretty sure M Delcamp is referring to the LH, as implied by the next sentence. I can see how his explanation could be misleading in light of what we're currently discussing.

Coen van Dijk wrote: AT mark: I am not sure if damping is equal to playing staccato. You can also damp and still play legato. Whit staccato you damp before the next note rings. With legato you damp simultaniously to making to next note ring. Or so I think...
You're exactly right. Good point. Staccato indications are pretty rare as far as I know in arpeggio studies/pieces anyway. I might have seen one in my Noad Book 2. If so I'll get back to you, especially if any indications of how to play it is offered in the book.

As a whole though I think that we're all (myself included) overthinking this all a bit. CG players are very analytical, more like math/science types (which I am, btw!) 8). Damping always applies to open strings. That's pretty much it. A fretted note never really gets 'damped' per se; if the note needs to terminate then the LH finger is lifted. Polyphony requires damping when as you and M Delcamp indicated dissonance would result otherwise, certainly. It's also needed when even though dissonance WON'T occur a baseline becomes weak and muddy if notes are not damped. I think this is more relevant to the etude that Donna was asking about. (as a reminder its on p58) In measure 3 the first indication of damping is noted. We're stopping the low A and replacing it with an octave higher in the bass melody. There's no dissonance there but had the low A been allowed to ring the baseline melody scale (A-G-F) would sound very weak, washed out by the more powerful ringing of the low A.

Man..sorry so long winded!! :oops: These are great discussions though, and a large part of why we're all on this forum! Hope I'm doing my part in helping!

RossStep

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by RossStep » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:23 pm

I have a question about the ornament on the waltz. Is it a pull-off or hammer-on with F and G?
Ross

Jack Jarrett

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Jack Jarrett » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:38 pm

Ross, It is a pull off as demonstrated in the videos, play with 4 finger on G# simultaneously with open D.When playing you should alread have 1 finger on F# ready for the pull off.A hammer on would be written differently.

Jack Jarrett

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Jack Jarrett » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:00 pm

Very good discussion regarding damping and I admit I have never thought much about this until these lessons. I know sometimes you want the notes to really ring as this ties them together and I had a teacher that had me purchase Noads Renaissance guitar book as this was his way of working on the ringing notes and connecting them. It is probably best to learn to damp so that the notes don't extend past the written length, but I think sometimes it may be left up to the player for personal interpretation or as what is generally accepted as the way it should be played. Also I think much of the classical music was written for other instruments,such as cello or piano, and maybe that has some bearing on how it should be played.

Here are my first posts with my attempts at damping, though they are hard to see if I am doing them correctly.
[media]https://youtu.be/YSMk84Ljt6k[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/uHnR9PKQVvU[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/sFb63MersVg[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/IthI7oe5Qz4[/media]

RossStep

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by RossStep » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:22 am

Jack, Thanks for the quick reply on the waltz ornament, makes perfect sense. All your posts look good, but the slurs sound stiff. I'm having the same problem trying to keep all the tones equal and in time. I found that when my LH fingertip angle was higher than perpendicular, I tended to tighten and snap the string. Something about the steeper angle made it hard to control the string. I'm still working on it. I'm ready to post, take a look and see what you think.
Ross
BTW, Great posts from everyone. All your knowledge is appreciated.

RossStep

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by RossStep » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:59 am

Here's Lesson 3. Ross
[media]https://youtu.be/ATuI6j8MU88[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/zyeHvvozBEI[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/V1OuDNQGUa4[/media]
[media]https://youtu.be/l2gr9ZB7j28[/media]

Jack Jarrett

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Jack Jarrett » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:31 am

Nice work Ross, very nice and smooth. You look very relaxed and both hand positions are very natural looking. You have memorized the Valse which gives you the ability to really work on it and make it beautiful which you have done. I noticed you look at the F major scale position changes. I'm just wondering how fast you could play that without looking? :P
Good Job

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Coen van Dijk
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Coen van Dijk » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:52 am

Hi Ross: Amazing! Soo smoothly played! :bravo:
And, Jack, you too. Sounds wonderfull and clear! :bravo:

Jack, I think somebody aready mentioned it to you: Your guitar looks like it is at and angle instead of sitting straight on your lap, parallel to your back. If this is ok for you, leave it, but I notice that your right hand is tilted upwards when playing and looks like it is causing tension in your hand. I think your right hand positions is caused by your guitar position. I can imagine lifting your hand all the time like that will hurt after playing longer times in a row. During greensleeves your right hand looks more relaxed, although your guitar postion is the same.
Have you tried the Carulli Arpegio study from D04-3? My hand cramps ups up like §$"% half way up the piece when I try to play it fast.

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Coen van Dijk
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Coen van Dijk » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:01 am

Mark wrote:
I'm pretty sure M Delcamp is referring to the LH, as implied by the next sentence. I can see how his explanation could be misleading in light of what we're currently discussing.
oohoohh, thanks for the tip. The coin did not drop there. With all these damping excersises and me worrying about the right hand, I forgot I have a left hand too :D . Now I see the the point of using the term fretting technique in this context. :oops: Makes more sense... thanks Mark!
Stil I have some questions about the arpeggio, but I will take it to the D04-3 discussion. Dont want to mess everything up....

Thorn Hill

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Thorn Hill » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:23 pm

I will get started on these lessons but I will explore them first to see how I can go about the whole thing. I guess one can go at one's own speed and according to one's own schedule! I really like the videos of M. Delcamp. Beautiful stuff there. I think videos are quite helpful for people who don't have a teacher to visit in person.

KH

Ned Henderson
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Ned Henderson » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:27 pm

:bravo: Well played everybody.

Coen - I think the F scale can do with a bit more work still, it was fine but it may be a good idea to slow down a little and look for clarity of tone and precision of placement of the LH - especially on the top E string. I am only telling you what I need to learn myself.The slurs are excellent. It is great how you can shift all four LH fingers into position with such precision and speed, and you pull off the string with clarity.

Ross - lovely to listen to your Paganini Waltz, played with excellent technique and real life in it...I found it very helpful.

Jack - well played, especially the Greensleeves which sounded good. I think maybe your RH technique is a little more tense or less fluid than usual and wonder if this is due to the position in which you are holding your guitar, your right wrist barely moves position and I think this restricts the tone you can produce in your playing to some extent. I liked listening to your rendition of the Paganini Waltz, you give it something of a stop time or ragtime feel and it sounds playful. I think in terms of practice, it may be good to try focusing on keeping the bass notes damped but allowing the treble notes to flow more lyrically...I think the term is legato but I am not sure, my classical terminology is a bit limited!

:merci: It is great to be part of such a lively and supportive group, thanks to everyone for the time and energy you are putting in

:bye: Ned

Jack Jarrett

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Jack Jarrett » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:02 am

Thanks Ned and Coen for the suggestions of my right hand. I'm not sure if it is the guitar that is tilted or me being lazy and laying my wrist on the guitar, very bad habit! I will definitely work on this! I think that maybe it is the position I have developed when trying to do rest strokes as it is easier for me.

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