D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

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EricKatz
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:53 pm

:bravo: Good job, Goran!
Steady tempo, good chord changes. Maybe you should work a bit more on making it a three voice piece. Now there's only the bass line and an arpeggio with equally played notes.

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:14 pm

Studying El sueno de la Munequita, I was a bit confused about some grace notes and a few glissando's.
In bar 1, 9 and 17 the grace note gets 50% of the duration from the note it belongs to, because there's not a little line through the grace note. But I hear some of you play the grace note much shorter.

A second question is about the line between some notes, indicating that the following note should be played with the same finger, as in bar 21 and 23. Mister Delcamp plays a glissando himself and I like that, but in my modest opinion that's not what the score says. In that case we need to notate also a slur (bowed line) if it concerns two "ordinary" notes. When it concerns a grace note and an "ordinary" note, we don't need the straight line, only the slur. Or am I wrong?

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:24 am

This is an interesting topic, Eric!
Eric de Vries wrote:Studying El sueno de la Munequita, I was a bit confused about some grace notes and a few glissando's.
In bar 1, 9 and 17 the grace note gets 50% of the duration from the note it belongs to, because there's not a little line through the grace note. But I hear some of you play the grace note much shorter.
To be honest I didn't notice that the little line was missing, which according to Wikipedia makes it an appoggiatura instead of an acciaccatura, and should therefore have more even duration between the two notes. I just followed the way M. Delcamp plays it (or at least how I thought he played it). There's yet again some confusion of terminology, as sometimes people just refer to long and short appoggiaturas, and acciaccatura refers to a non-harmonic note played either at the same time or slightly before a chord (that interpretation is surely more relevant with piano than guitar). I also understood after some research in internet, that modern editors do not use long appoggiaturas anymore, but they are instead written as two notes of equal duration (and same font size) with a slur between them.

I also checked 'The Complete Works of Agustin Barrios Mangore' by Rico Stower, and he uses the little line in those places making it a short appoggiatura or an acciaccatura, whatever you wish to call it. Therefore I tend to think that the 'g' should be played short rather than long. Another significant difference between the short and long versions is that in the long one the grace note is accented (as it occurs on the beat), and the following note is not, which I think would sound strange in the context of this piece (with long appoggiatura the transition from the grace note into the main note usually resolves tension, which I think is not the case here, as the tension is relieved only when returning to 'e'). With short appoggiatura the latter note gets the accent.
Eric de Vries wrote:A second question is about the line between some notes, indicating that the following note should be played with the same finger, as in bar 21 and 23. Mister Delcamp plays a glissando himself and I like that, but in my modest opinion that's not what the score says. In that case we need to notate also a slur (bowed line) if it concerns two "ordinary" notes. When it concerns a grace note and an "ordinary" note, we don't need the straight line, only the slur. Or am I wrong?
I think you are wrong with your assumption that glissando would require a slur tie. The slur would simply indicate that the latter note isn't played with right hand, or at least played very softly. Grace note without the straight line could imply simply a pull-off or a hammer-on.

Some examples from D05:

- Lagrima, p. 89, bar 9 : Between two notes a grace note connected to the first note with a straight line (no slur tie) indicating : first play the first note, then slide to the pitch of the second note (audibly), then play the second note.

- Romanza bar 5 : Grace note connected to main note with a straight line (no slur tie) indicating : play the pitch of the grace note, then immediately slide into the main note (audibly), but do not play it again. I read somewhere that grace notes are always assumed to be slurred into the main note, so the use of slur tie is not mandatory.

- Ländler p. 76, bar 8: Two notes connected with straight line and a slur tie indicating : play the first note, then slide to second note (audibly) but do not play it.

- Ländler p. 76, bar 12: Between two notes a grace note connected to the second note with a straight line and a slur tie indicating : Play the first note, then play the first note again, and immediately slide (audibly) into the pitch of the second note, but do not play the second note (again).

- El sueno de la Munequita, bars 21 and 23: Could be shorthand for Lagrima case, or could simply indicate a guide finger (non-audible slide), or could indicate "do it however you want to". But I personally think it's the first case, because otherwise the fingering wouldn't make any sense. Why use the same finger for those notes unless the purpose is to produce an audible slide?

Just my 2c and some change...
Last edited by Marko Räsänen on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:08 am

Here are my end of lesson recordings... Still some hesitation here and there, but I hope some of them are enjoyable.

Required:
Matteo Carcassi (1792-1853) Etude III opus 60
[media]https://youtu.be/zhSI71GX5YM[/media]

Agustín Barrios Mangoré (1885-1944) El sueño de la muñequita
[media]https://youtu.be/l9wmUVL6sBY[/media]

Optional:
Julio Sagreras (1879-1942) Lecciones III n°11
[media]https://youtu.be/yQgPUpy90yM[/media]

Niccolò PAGANINI (1782-1840) GHIRIBIZZO n°38 (still rough...)
[media]https://youtu.be/gQa8jamynIA[/media]

Anonyme Saltarello (should have played it slower, I know :D I've played it before with open base notes)
[media]https://youtu.be/yGgX9EBytDY[/media]
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:11 pm

Nice work, Håvard! :bravo:

I especially enjoyed your Saltarello. It seems to me that you had given it considerable practice effort to get it where it is now. I enjoyed your Sagreras as well, and I think it was very musically played, despite some hiccups. Perhaps the accompaniment was even too soft at times. On the other hand, it seems that you didn't work very much with Carcassi and Paganini, as you seemed to have some trouble memorizing the fingerings on some parts. I think that's perfectly ok, as those pieces aren't technically very challenging.

I'm not sure how much time did you spend with Barrios piece since your first recording? It was naturally better than before, but perhaps your practice has been too much biased towards the harmonics part, and the tempo you chose was definitely too fast for you. When I look at your left hand, it seems to me that your movements are a bit jerky and nervous, which often happens when one doesn't take the time to practice passages slowly enough to learn the most economical movements. Technical things aside, I liked the way you performed it. You made it a very enjoyable piece of music, and a slower tempo probably wouldn't had highlighted that as well.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:45 pm

Because lesson 6 already has started, I want to post the last submission of lesson 5 as it is . I'm not really statisfied, but I need my time now to keep up with lesson 6. Another three week cycle! Life can be hard for a on line student ... :wink:
I have studied also the other pieces, but I will not post them this time. :desole:

[media]https://youtu.be/Pk8T-j8cz_U[/media]

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:23 am

:bravo: Eric! Very good! As you said, it still needs work, but there's no time at the moment.

I recognized much of the difficulties you had as the same ones I had myself :)

I have a small tip for you even though I realize you have already moved on (but perhaps useful in other situations as well).
Transition to E minor barre chord in 7th position in bar 12: It looked to me as if you're trying to finger the whole E minor barre chord at one go. You don't need fingers 3 and 4 in place at beat 1 of that bar, so I found it easier to just concentrate on sliding the middle finger to 8th fret and putting the index finger down at the 6th string @ 7th fret (no need for actual barre in this bar, except for to mute 1st and 5th string). Then you buy yourself the time of an additional beat to place fingers 3 and 4. The index finger needs to do full barring only late on bar 13, when 'B' on the 1st string is played, so there's plenty of time for that.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:28 pm

Marko Räsänen wrote: - El sueno de la Munequita, bars 21 and 23: Could be shorthand for Lagrima case, or could simply indicate a guide finger (non-audible slide), or could indicate "do it however you want to". But I personally think it's the first case, because otherwise the fingering wouldn't make any sense. Why use the same finger for those notes unless the purpose is to produce an audible slide?
As always, I'm impressed by your knowledge (or the time you spend to do some usefull research). :merci:
I think it's exactly this multiple choice that's confusing me. Why do we use a straight line in bar 7/8 to point out that we should use the same finger, but when the melody is going up as in bar 21 and 23 the score prescribes a slide?

(By the way, did you listen to Enno Voorhorst rendition. He is a Barrios-specialist. He uses some glissando's, but not at the places the D05-score indicates. Funny!)

I think maybe we should see the notation in bar 21 and 23 like this: in the first place it's a finger guide, but it's a nice spot to play a glissando also (if you want to). In bar 21 you play d-f-e with the same finger on the one string in stead of jumping from b to e and back. You get the same timbre. In bar 23 the benefit of the fingering used is that your 3rd finger stays on the g-string, so you can go to the a in bar 24 more easily.

A last remark on your advice about making the shift to bar 12. Usually this is no problem for me, it simply went wrong in the recording. I really had trouble playing the chord in bar 55. I think your advice can help here. So, thanks!

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:38 pm

Eric de Vries wrote:As always, I'm impressed by your knowledge (or the time you spend to do some usefull research). :merci:
It's the latter! :D I'm bothered by the ambiguity same as you, and like to spend some time analyzing things. I feel that it gives some more depth to this hobby.
Eric de Vries wrote:I think it's exactly this multiple choice that's confusing me. Why do we use a straight line in bar 7/8 to point out that we should use the same finger, but when the melody is going up as in bar 21 and 23 the score prescribes a slide?
I played bar 7/8 with a slide as well. So does professor Delcamp. But notice the lack of a slide line between bars 21 and 22 when there is position shift and the same finger is used on the same string. Clearly no guide fingers are marked in this piece.

I haven't got round to listening your link yet, but I have a CD of him playing Barrios pieces (including this one), but I haven't listened to it for a while. I also enjoy Berta Rojas' interpretation of Barrios, but unfortunately this piece isn't included in her CD. Most people probably play quite a different version of 'El Sueño de la Muñequita' compared to Delcamp's. Complete Barrios book I mentioned before seems to use a different fingering and some additional chords in places where we play single melody notes (with slides). That's probably more faithful to the original one than ours.
Eric de Vries wrote:I think maybe we should see the notation in bar 21 and 23 like this: in the first place it's a finger guide, but it's a nice spot to play a glissando also (if you want to). In bar 21 you play d-f-e with the same finger on the one string in stead of jumping from b to e and back. You get the same timbre. In bar 23 the benefit of the fingering used is that your 3rd finger stays on the g-string, so you can go to the a in bar 24 more easily.
You could definitely play this without glissandos, if you wanted to, but I maintain the fingering is clearly made to facilitate slides. Bar 21/22 could be played with fingering 1,4,4 all in 2nd string. Playing 'd' with 4 just creates extra left hand movement, if you're not going to slide. Bar 23 could use 1, 4 on 3rd string. In bar 24 finger 3 needs to be down only at the 2nd beat, so I don't think it matters whether 3 is already fretted in previous bar or not.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:44 pm

:bravo: Eric. :casque: See you in L06
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by piero zaninetti » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:33 pm

I leave from lesson 5 with this nice Ghiribizzo by Paganini :bye: :bye:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:33 am

Exam piece
- page 118 Agustín Barrios Mangoré (1885-1944) El sueño de la muñequita

A good reason to pick up this (imo) beautiful piece again.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:49 am

This was a rather pleasant surprise! A part of me would have wanted to study one of the more difficult pieces in more detail, but I suppose it will be challenging enough to get this up to fast tempo. And yes, it is a rather beautiful piece in my opinion as well!
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:31 am

El Sueño de la Muñequita wasn't at my short list of exam pieces either.
But listening again to our recordings of 5 lessons ago, we're challenged to show the progression we should have made in the second part of level D05. Apart from the harmonics, it will be hard job to play it on tempo, with separation of voices, with some dynamics, with difference of tone in the repetitions and a little variation in tempo (rubato?).
I wish you all good luck to bring out the best you can!!

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:31 am

Regarding the exam piece, I have tried plucking the 5th fret harmonic both with thumb and 'a' finger, but it's clear to me now that no matter what I need to move my right hand towards the sound hole in order to get a clear sound out of it. There are two consequences: 1) I cannot do it fast, and hence the flow of the music will be disrupted, and 2) controlling the volume and the quality of the produced harmonic is very difficult because they are very much dependent on the exact plucking position. There is the option to stop the harmonic node with right hand thumb instead of a left hand finger, but I find that unnecessarily complicated as well.

Therefore I intend to change the fingering so that I play the high 'a' from 3rd string (2nd fret; 14th fret harmonic node). The simplest left hand fingering then becomes : Bar 42: (a1,c#1) barre, g2;
Bar 43: same as previous bar; Bar 44: a2, d4, f1. It's much easier that way, and I don't think changing the fingering is against the exam rules as long as the same notes are played. As an added bonus no left hand fingers need to be moved for bar 45. Any thoughts?
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