D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

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EricKatz
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:27 am

Marko,
As long as audio recording is permitted, I don't think it's against the "rules" to change fingering. But the harmonic does sound quite different and that surely will be noticed.
Furthermore, I doubt if this is worth the trouble. While the first count is a rest, there's time enough to move your R-hand to a place where the harmonic a-7th fret sounds allright and then again back to the "standard position" of your R-hand. (Just as Mr. Delcamp does it).The fretting on the A string can be done with your 4th LH-finger.

I find it much more difficult to play the rests in bar 14 and 16 and have a clear bass note through the whole bar.

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:41 am

Hi Eric,

I'm not too concerned if it will be noticed or not. To me it's the 5th fret harmonic that sounds different from the rest of the harmonics, and the accompaniment surrounding it needs to be played while the hand is moving. I don't understand why it's written like that, if not just to demonstrate different ways of producing harmonics. Stower edition uses the 'a' on the 3rd string there, but many of the accompaniment chords are different. I can do the right hand move with slow enough tempo, but I seriously doubt if I can do it consistently with my target tempo (that would be similar tempo to professor Delcamp's playing). Even professor Delcamp chooses to use a little rubato there. The left hand fingering was never an issue for me. It's the right hand movement back and forth, as it makes it very difficult for me to hit the correct strings. It's definitely worth the trouble for me to change the fingering there. The real reward hopefully will be more relaxed performance overall.

That's a good point regarding the damping in bars 14 and 16. Professor Delcamp doesn't seem to damp on the 3rd beat of bar 14, but does so in bar 16. There are flower symbols also at the last quavers of bars 13 and 15. So far I've only tried to damp the bass note B at the beginning of bar 14, but I think there's clearly a need for some more damping in that section. I will have to experiment what sounds the best.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:31 pm

About the A harmonic. I remember from last time that I experimented with this. I think I played the 4th string harmonic at 19th fret for several days (my first recording) before I decided to go for the 5th fret as given. I think it is possible to practice the movement of the right hand to prepare for the harmonics while playing the accompaniment. I'm holding my tempo down this first week to improve accuracy, so I've not experienced the issue of not having time to move the plucking hand yet. I think I tried the 3rd string 2nd fret option also. I'm interested in knowing what you feel about it after practicing it for a few days.
PS Thanks for pointing out the damping issue in bars 14+16. I'll have to look into that as well.
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:13 pm

Hi Håvard,

Here's a kind of 'proof of concept'.

[media]https://youtu.be/Zgj9V-UVZ1I[/media]

There's a difference to the indicated fingering that I need to damp the 5th string 12th fret harmonic with the side of my thumb before playing the 3rd string 14th fret harmonic, but that's not difficult at all.

This is after one and a half night's practice of the piece using the 3rd string 'a', and it didn't take me too many tries to get a take this clean (not to say there isn't still much work to be done). You are of course right that the right hand can be trained to produce a clear sounding 5th (or 19th) fret harmonic, but to me this issue is pragmatic. I'd rather spend my practice time polishing the piece otherwise, and come the time to record the piece, and say I've got an otherwise good recording but the 5th fret harmonic sounds dead. Will I just accept it, or spend a night or two trying to make a recording where I get those harmonics spot on, and the rest of the piece as well?

I realized today that one of the biggest difficulties with the first one of the 5th fret harmonics is indeed the left hand fingering, as Eric suggested earlier. Unless I look at my left hand, it's very difficult to get the middle finger exactly on top of the 5th fret with 3 and 4 somewhere between the 4th and 5th frets, and unless I look at my right hand I tend to underestimate the distance I have moved my right hand towards the bridge. Listening back to this lesson recordings, I noticed that pretty much everyone either didn't get an audible 5th fret harmonic in the first bar it is used, or had to practically stop the music to look. The 2nd 5th fret harmonic is much easier as the node is stopped with pinky. Still the right hand movement back towards the 12th fret tends to mess up following bar or two because of the tension it causes.

I'm glad to hear that you've been doing some slow practice. Hopefully you'll be able to see the benefits yourself! I tend to mix various tempos when I practice. The tempo in the youtube clip I posted will be close to the performance tempo I'm going to use for the exam, and I think there will be plenty of challenge getting the A part to that tempo (and polished). After proving to myself that the tempo will not cause problems in B part, I can slow it down once more and concentrate on the tone (and playing it consistently without mistakes).
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:34 pm

Sounds good, Marko!!
To be honest, I couldn't hear any difference using the a/14nd fret harmonic.

Maybe you should pay some attention to the volume of the harmonics in bar 38, 45 and 48. They are a lot softer than the rest of the harmonics.

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:00 pm

Thanks Eric! I'll do that as part of polishing things up.

Regarding bar 14, damping the high b before playing f# doesn't really make much difference in my opinion, as the playing of f# will mask b as practically inaudible with the other notes playing as well. What makes a little difference to voicing is whether you lift the 2nd finger d# just as you play b. The 'a' should be damped at the 3rd beat, but doing so makes the last note sound rather anemic with just f# octaves apart sounding. Furthermore no one seems to play the measure that way. Enno (in the video you hinted at earlier) seems to only damp the bass B from the previous bar (probably by lifting the barre momentarily) and just blaze that bar through.

Similarly in bar 16 there is a little difference whether you lift 3rd finger d as you play b, or not, but there the 3rd beat f sounds interesting with the bass E even without the other notes ringing, and it sounds to me right to do so. So I will play that measure probably by letting the 2nd beat d and b ring together and then lift them along with g# as I play the 3rd beat f.
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat May 10, 2014 2:56 pm

Håvard, I watched your Barrios recording again, and noticed that in bar 45 you play the harmonic bass note 'a' instead of 'd'. I just thought I'd point that out, in case you haven't noticed it yourself, and have a chance to fix it before the exam :bye:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Sun May 11, 2014 6:30 pm

:merci: Marko! I don't remember, but I think that was a one time mistake... I play the right note now :) Appreciate your comment :bye:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat May 24, 2014 8:54 am

Håvard, I meant to congratulate you on your exam performance, but didn't get a chance before the thread was locked, so I'll do it here.

:bravo: :bravo: You did very well, especially the harmonics section!

I can see from D01 and D06 qualifications threads that the judges are back into the old grading system:
diplôme non décerné / diploma non assegnato / diploma not awarded / diploma no concedido
diplôme décerné / diploma assegnato / diploma awarded / diploma concedido
diplôme décerné avec mention assez bien / diploma assegnato con valutazione abbastanza bene / diploma awarded with honours / diploma concedido con mención Bien
diplôme décerné avec mention bien / diploma assegnato con valutazione bene / diploma awarded with high honours /diploma concedido con mención Muy bien
diplôme décerné avec mention très bien / diploma assegnato con valutazione molto bene / diploma awarded with highest honours / diploma concedido con mención Honorífica
Last year the highest grade given was diploma concedido con mención Muy bien which equalled avec mention très bien in the diploma, which was a little confusing.

Anyway, this year it looks like très bien will be very hard to get. 2 out of 46 was given con mención Honorífica in D01, and 1 out of 11 in D06.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Sat May 24, 2014 12:10 pm

:merci: Marko. I've listened several times to yor recording. My first thougt was that this is not the best perfomance you've done, but I find I enjoy it more each time. :casque: Your sound is very good, as always. And the parts I find most difficult you seem to play very relaxed and controlled. I dare not predict any results becase it is difficult to know what the jury is looking for. Some sort of criterion references would be nice. I wish the best for all of us :)
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Sat May 24, 2014 1:05 pm

Thanks for this clarification, Marko.
I agree with Havard that the evaluation criteria are quite mysterious. E.g. what about playing the piece at 50% of the given speed?
Also the requirements for the submissions weren't met by everyone (no picture added to an audio recording or not send in exactly within the given time frame) - but who cares... (I don't anyway, although I would prefer to allow only video recordings).

Maybe in this little corner we could make a personal prediction. If I was the only member of the jury, IMO it would be like this:
diploma non concedido: Anne
diploma concedido: Bernard, Stefano
diploma concedido con mencion bien: Pascale, Manuel, Eric
diploma concedido con mencion muy bien: Piero, Marko, Jules, Arnaud, Ivan
diploma concedido con mencion honorifica: Dimitri, Havard, Pat

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat May 24, 2014 2:39 pm

Thanks Håvard! I've got to admit that I have somewhat mixed feelings about my performance. The good thing about it is that it ended up pretty much the way I intended it, and I was quite happy after managing to capture it. But listening to it afterwards, depending on my mood, I find it a bit too lethargic, and there are some places I linger for too long, I feel, and generally slow down the tempo a bit too much (especially the beginning of the harmonics section). But it's mostly some fine tweaking I would do, if possible, but given the fact that it took quite many tries on several days to end up with that take, I think I can honestly say that it's the best I can realistically do at the moment.

In 2012 exams (or might have been 2011) they showed the individual judge scores for each student exam performance, the final grade being determined by the sum of the judge scores. Nowadays only the final grades are shown, but I suspect the system still remains the same. That means there are several differing opinions, and the performances that please most of the judges will get the highest scores. It also means that it's impossible to give any definite set of criteria. I think it's best to think if your grade as an average of people with differing tastes. Certainly things like solid technique will always be valued high, but when it comes to musical expression, things get more complicated.

I've received con mencion honorifica in my previous two exams (D03 and D04), but was never really sure why. At least they never were "perfect" takes in my opinion, and the tempo I chose was pretty much average. But as the grading this year seems to be tougher than before, I think Eric's prediction will be correct what comes to my grade. Other than that, I don't care to guess. What comes to the chosen tempo, I think the judges will pick up easily, whether the chosen tempo is because of technical inability to play faster, or a decision based on musical reasons. Also it's noteworthy that in D06 exam the fastest performance didn't get the top marks, probably due to issues of sloppiness / too high tempo for the technical ability. That's just to remind us all that it's probably best to choose a tempo you're technically comfortable with.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:37 am

... patience is a virtue:-)
In the meantime I've sent you a PM. I don't get the PM system... Some of the messages was sent directly, and some remain in the outbox. Please let me know if you did not receive it...
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:22 am

Håvard.Bergene wrote:... patience is a virtue:-)
Maybe we will also get a grade for patience :lol: :lol:
On the French forum some D05 students are getting nervous and worried about the delay. Il a fallu que ça tombe sur nous! (That it just had to be us!)

I think I will stop to look every three hours on the Spanish forum. Someone writes: l' an dernier je crois, presqu' une semaine de retard sur je ne sais plus quel niveau (last year there was a delay of one week on a certain level, don't remember which one).

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by GeoffB » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:50 am

Håvard.Bergene wrote: I don't get the PM system... Some of the messages was sent directly, and some remain in the outbox. Please let me know if you did not receive it...
The way it works is that the message remains in the outbox until the recipient has opened it, then it moves to the sent messages folder. Very useful in fact, because you can tell whether it's been read yet. Unfortunately some people never seem to notice that they have a new message, so then you may have to mention it in a reply somewhere on the forum where they will see it, and ask them to check their mail.

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