D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by CarlWestman » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:22 pm

Stefan Srećković wrote:Thanks Carl! Don't ever hesitate in putting your thoughts on the table, I got your point clear. I too am not sure where I'm going with rubato, but playing dead on the beat very boring very fast :/ How are your lesson 06 pieces coming along?
Please know that I enjoy and admire your playing; my only point is that I don't know how to evaluate it, at least rhythmically, and that vexes me a little bit, since we are supposed to be critiquing each other. So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to do that. [As an aside, you are on another level, really.]

My practice has picked up lately, after much of the week having been compromised by a winter storm which really caused a great deal of trouble here. I won't bore you with details, save that I have spent much of each day walking long distances to where our cars had to be left, nearer the cleared main road.

I have the slurs video done, and started to record Andantino yesterday, but I didn't do very well on my first time out. I do like that one, so I do expect to record it and the Carcassi as well. I just need to put in more time. Funny how more practice helps ... to a point. Then you have to take a break to let it sink in. At least, I do, because if I don't, I just stumble more and more. Strange.

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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by CarlWestman » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:29 pm

Well done, Bea! You played with confidence and an economy of motion in your right hand. I am surprised that you had more difficulty with the slurs than the pieces themselves. Do you know why that is? Have you listened to the Delcamp example enough to internalize the timing? How about your fingering - do you find it hard to hammer your finger against the fretboard to go from E to F, say, on that first note? I did find it a little painful after awhile, but generally, you want that index finger to come in orthogonal to the plane of the fretboard. Just like a column that is being dropped on its base. So you want the very tip of the finger, not the pad. After that, and after plucking the F, pull away laterally (parallel to the fretboard plane) and you should get the right sound.

On the pieces, the only critique I have is one for myself, more legato. I don't really know how to fix that except by practice. In a way, it's a good example (for most notes, save those indicated), of not muting.

Beatriz Martin

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Beatriz Martin » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:06 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments, I need to incorporate legato into the daily practice of exercise, anything that I play, and every time I am learning a new piece. That day that Stefan told me to work on not stopping some notes from ringing i practiced that for a couple of days and it made a difference, but then later I forgot about paying attention to it.
Carl, I think I concentrated more on playing the pieces without putting enough time and effort to the slurs.
With slurs I need to work in the technique of hammering and pulling. Usually I am very gentle with the guitar, and I feel with slurs you have to be rough. But more likely it is the technique and not being rough. And i should practice them with the metronome that I didn't do.

Stefan Srećković

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Stefan Srećković » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:11 am

Take your time Beatriz, I feel like you're slightly stressing out over it. Practice a bit every day and things will smoothen out. Long as you're aware of your mistakes/mishaps.

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:31 am

CarlWestman wrote:Please know that I enjoy and admire your playing; my only point is that I don't know how to evaluate it, at least rhythmically, and that vexes me a little bit, since we are supposed to be critiquing each other. So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to do that. [As an aside, you are on another level, really.]
That's a difficult dilemma. But as you know, Stefan knows how to play these D02 pieces 100% accurately, and especially does not make any rhythmic mistakes, so you can assume that any alteration to tempo / rhythm is made on purpose. Ok, that's probably a slight overstatement, but not far from the truth. That leaves you with the judgement of whether his use of rubato made the piece (or any particular spot) sound good, or whether you found it rhythmically confusing. Sometimes the combination of over-sustaining the notes and using emphasis incorrectly might put the listener temporarily on 'a wrong track' regarding where the 1st beat of the bar occurs, and that is of course something everyone should avoid in their interpretation, in my opinion at least.

Referring to your complaint, and Bea's complaint earlier that he found it difficult to follow professor Delcamp's playing because of the rubato, I think it is something that you simply must train yourself to do. Or not so much train, but get used to over time. It's the bit where the player brings a part him/herself into the composition, so it does not sound exactly identical than any other person playing it. From your point of view, I think it's good that you are being exposed into it, because the aim is that you learn to use it yourself eventually. And the usage of it is also something that you need to practice to become better at it. But before that can happen, you need to be able to play the rhythm as it is notated.

Finally I'll quote Frederick Noad from his famous book 'Solo Guitar Playing vol 1', chapter titled 'Musicianship':
When the basic problems of technique are overcome, it is important to remember that the object of playing a musical instrument is not to execute notes, but to make music. Music is a means of expression and communication, and for this reason has often been called a language.

...

The steps outlined here are easy to take, and it cannot be too strongly recommended that the serious student make every effort from the earliest stages to be not only a guitarist but a musician as well.
Although I must point that he doesn't mention rubato at all in that section. There's a separate paragraph in volume 2 of the book. He there lists a set of recommended rules to all but the most experienced performers.
1. Use rubato with restraint in music prior to the classical period.
2. Confine the slowing of tempo to the ends of musical phrases.
3. Commence the following phrase in strict tempo.
4. Do not employ this device as an excuse for slowing up at a difficult technical spot; use it only for musically expressive purposes.
5. If in doubt, sing the melody of the passage and decide whether the rubato sounds natural to the voice. If it does not, it is probably not appropriate for the instrument either.
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LindaWoodford
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by LindaWoodford » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:09 pm

What a shame about rule number 4....
Regards, Linda

Stefan Srećković

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Stefan Srećković » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:02 pm

LindaWoodford wrote:What a shame about rule number 4....
:D

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:41 pm

On the other hand, you could just call yourself an MEP (most experienced performer, that is) and ignore all the rules :lol:
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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by CarlWestman » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:27 pm

Marko Räsänen wrote:
1. Use rubato with restraint in music prior to the classical period.
2. Confine the slowing of tempo to the ends of musical phrases.
3. Commence the following phrase in strict tempo.
4. Do not employ this device as an excuse for slowing up at a difficult technical spot; use it only for musically expressive purposes.
5. If in doubt, sing the melody of the passage and decide whether the rubato sounds natural to the voice. If it does not, it is probably not appropriate for the instrument either.
Thanks for posting this, Marko. I find this fascinating. Rule 2 certainly concords with my experience - that we often hear slowing down for dramatic effect at the end of a musical composition, if not other phrases as well. Rule 3 didn't dawn on me, but upon reflection I think it also concords with my experience. Though I do suspect I've heard exceptions, but I could be confusing those exceptions with phrases that start out very softly, rather than slowly.

Beatriz Martin

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Beatriz Martin » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:04 pm

Marko Räsänen wrote:1. Use rubato with restraint in music prior to the classical period.
What does this mean? does restraint mean not to use it too much before the classical period, which starts in 1750? or to use it only before 1750?

Stefan Srećković

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Stefan Srećković » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:31 pm

Classical period has much less liberty in terms of rubato usage. Though some players implement rubato even here. Eric Henderson comes to mind and his recording of Fernando Sor.

[media]https://youtu.be/1aV2pCmAS8U[/media]

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:18 pm

CarlWestman wrote:Thanks for posting this, Marko. I find this fascinating. Rule 2 certainly concords with my experience - that we often hear slowing down for dramatic effect at the end of a musical composition, if not other phrases as well. Rule 3 didn't dawn on me, but upon reflection I think it also concords with my experience. Though I do suspect I've heard exceptions, but I could be confusing those exceptions with phrases that start out very softly, rather than slowly.
Carl, one thing to keep in mind is, that Noad wrote the book almost 40 years ago, and no doubt the current aesthetics is different from 1970's at least to a degree. For instance I'm not sure how well professor Delcamp's playing adheres to these rules. I think he mostly uses a kind of 'ebb and flow' type of rubato in the middle of the phrase. I think you very likely must have heard exceptions to the these rules, but perhaps they are a good guideline for someone who is just starting to experiment with rubato. To me at least they sound to be on the 'safe' side.
Beatriz Martin wrote:
Marko Räsänen wrote:1. Use rubato with restraint in music prior to the classical period.
What does this mean? does restraint mean not to use it too much before the classical period, which starts in 1750? or to use it only before 1750?
It means the first one. Avoid (at least excessive) rubato in renaissance (or earlier) and baroque music. Use it a little more in classical period music (not sure of the years, but typically composers Carulli, Carcassi, Sor, Aguado, Giuliani, Paganini), and use it a lot in romantic era pieces (roughly 1850 - early 20th century).
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:24 pm

Stefan Srećković wrote:Classical period has much less liberty in terms of rubato usage. Though some players implement rubato even here. Eric Henderson comes to mind and his recording of Fernando Sor.
Sor's later works are usually classified as 'early romantic period', so he wrote both classical and romantic pieces. I'm not sure when he wrote the B minor study, but it would be a shame to play it without any rubato at all :D
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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by CarlWestman » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:36 pm

my submissions

p. 78 n 19, Slurs: http://youtu.be/5xTKh2tVSHw

and two more as MP3 only.

With respect to recording video, can anyone suggest how to take an MP4 from a smartphone video camera and get it to work in Windows Live Movie Maker? I seem to be able to trim it - and export to AVI, a format which Movie Maker is supposed to like - but it won't open it. I get a handful of frames (representing 5 seconds) with a little red dot and white X inside.

There are only 2 things I want to be able to do with this mp4 file: trim it, and overdub it with an WAV file from a digital recorder. Well, maybe 3: from there, have it in a format that Youtube will support.

I'm asking b/c my previous setup is getting a little unreliable ... and has always been a little inconvenient, in that it only likes to record for about 5-6 min at a time. It gets to be a hassle.

Thanks -
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Stefan Srećković

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 06

Post by Stefan Srećković » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:40 pm

WOW. What a difference. Seems like the absence of a video camera did quite a bit of magic. Well done Carl, I am truly impressed!

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