D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

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Stefan Srećković

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Stefan Srećković » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:58 pm

Just a heads up everyone - pay close attention to the duration of notes in bar 14, seen far too many students misreading these notes last year :bye:

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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Mariano Martínez Gallego » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:11 pm

Stefan Srećković wrote:Just a heads up everyone - pay close attention to the duration of notes in bar 14, seen far too many students misreading these notes last year :bye:
O.K. Stefan :contrat:

a greeting
Mariano.

Nota: Double box :discussion:
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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by CarlWestman » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:11 am

Question on Menuet by Krieger:

in measure 3 (and its parallel measure, 19), does the G note on the melody/treble get played as 4th string, 5th fret? It's not indicated as such, but if you play it as open on the 3rd string, it will kill the dotted half note G at the beginning of the measure, which is supposed to last the whole measure.

The only other thing I can think of is that the dot does not belong on the half-note, and thus the last note of the measure is just a quarter note, open string G, that interrupts nothing since it would then follow a half note.

Also, and perhaps you all touched on this earlier with the trills - it's pretty clear that M. Delcamp does not play the first part and second part the same the second time through (that is, after the repeat mark). He adds some ornamentation of some sort. I'm not sure if it's the trill you mention, or if it's some part of a scale he snuck in there. Since it's not in the sheet music (is it?) then I trust we are not expected to play it, but if we're clever enough to pick up on what he's doing, we of course can?

Thank you,
CW

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Marko Räsänen » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:15 am

CarlWestman wrote:in measure 3 (and its parallel measure, 19), does the G note on the melody/treble get played as 4th string, 5th fret? It's not indicated as such, but if you play it as open on the 3rd string, it will kill the dotted half note G at the beginning of the measure, which is supposed to last the whole measure.

The only other thing I can think of is that the dot does not belong on the half-note, and thus the last note of the measure is just a quarter note, open string G, that interrupts nothing since it would then follow a half note.
The lower voice is definitely a dotted half note, because otherwise you would expect to see either a pause of quarter note duration, or the 'g' at the 3rd beat would have stems both up and down (a convention that is sometimes seen).

I must once again emphasize that I am in no means an expert when it comes to interpreting written music (or much anything else), so what I'm saying is just based on my experience.
Within the written music there can exist musical ideas that sometimes cannot be literally implemented on a certain instrument. In this case there is the musical idea that the piece starts with two phrases both two bars long, which have a similar structure. The upper voice first plays 3 quarter notes followed by a dotted half note, whereas the lower voice plays a dotted half note followed by three quarter notes. In this (and I guess many other) guitar transcriptions of this menuet, originally written for keyboard, the voices end up playing the same note at the end of bar 3.

Consider if it was written for keyboard the same way (I don't think it is, but that's beside the point). Clearly with keyboard it's impossible to play the same note 'double'. Which means that in this case we can rule out the intention of the composer being the 'g' played at two strings. The next clue is that the transcriber did not leave any direct clues as to which string he wanted each note to be played (no circled numbers). In guitar literature intended for beginners that generally means to use the string that allows playing at lowest position.

In my opinion this case is quite straightforward, and the intention is to play both the g's on the 3rd string, because there will be no issues with harmony changing when doing so. If the upper voice 'g' was already played on 2nd beat (let's say the upper voice would go d-g-b instead of d-b-g) cutting the lower voice short would have an effect to harmony, and then the only right solution in my opinion would be to play the lower voice 'g' on the 4th string. You can do so now as well if you wish (and in my opinion from the point of view of separating the voices, it's much better to play the lower voice on the wound string compared to the last note of the upper voice, because 2nd and 3rd strings are more similar in tone compared to 4th), but you don't really have to. It would of course then mean that you no longer will be able to play the 'd' with 4th finger as indicated in the music sheet.
CarlWestman wrote:Also, and perhaps you all touched on this earlier with the trills - it's pretty clear that M. Delcamp does not play the first part and second part the same the second time through (that is, after the repeat mark). He adds some ornamentation of some sort. I'm not sure if it's the trill you mention, or if it's some part of a scale he snuck in there. Since it's not in the sheet music (is it?) then I trust we are not expected to play it, but if we're clever enough to pick up on what he's doing, we of course can?
I would say that you could either pick up on what he's doing, or preferably invent some ornamentation of your own (division / diminution; you could google those to get a better idea how it's generally done). It's supposed to be spontaneous / improvised. But don't feel that you have to add anything to the written music. There will be some separate ornamentation assignments in the more advanced classes.
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CarlWestman
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by CarlWestman » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:30 pm

Marko Räsänen wrote:
CarlWestman wrote:In my opinion this case is quite straightforward, and the intention is to play both the g's on the 3rd string, because there will be no issues with harmony changing when doing so.
Thank you Marko for your tireless contributions to the D02 forum.

I remain a little puzzled, however. By the above, do you mean that you would begin measure 3 (and I understand that one can view the D note as really being grouped with the prior ascension) - you begin measure 3 with pinky on the 2nd string D, while simultaneously striking G on the 3rd string, then you play a quarter note open B string, and hten you play a quarter note open G string? Thus, the dotted half note really does effectively get shortened to a half note in duration. I get that it is a "lower voice" and if it was truly a half note, there'd be a quarter rest before the end of the measure. And it's not really much of a bass note in that it's not even on a wound string. But striking that last G on a quarter note is going to stop the dotted half note from ringing out for 3 beats. So it seems a bit incongruous to me.

Thanks,
Carl

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Marko Räsänen » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:21 pm

Yes Carl, you're right. The lower voice will effectively be split into half note and a quarter note (which is shared with the upper voice note). It's a tradeoff. There are two things you can do to make it sound more seamless. The first one is to make the period between stopping 'g' and playing it again (planting) as short as possible, so that there will be no audible pause in the lower voice, and the second one is to play the second 'g' softly enough so that it doesn't stand out too much. You'll have to compromise between the two roles of the note (one in upper and the other in lower voice).

I said it's a tradeoff, because playing the same note on two strings at the same time doesn't necessarily sound very good, because the chances are that the two notes will not sound in exact same pitch, and it may not sound good, similarly as two singers singing the same voice may sound odd. There isn't a perfect solution for the problem, so you will have to settle with the lesser of evils. You might consider it "cheating" of some sorts, but the key is to do it so that no one will notice :)

There are also situations where you need to cut non-melody notes short or even omit some notes altogether simply because you have a limited amount of fingers or their reach is limited. Most often that happens with pieces originally written for another instrument, or an ensemble. Then you need to decide what is the best-sounding ( or the most faithful to musical ideas written in the piece) compromise you can actually play.
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Mariano Martínez Gallego » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 am

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Last edited by Mariano Martínez Gallego on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Mariano Martínez Gallego » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:23 am

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Haris Karachristianidis
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Haris Karachristianidis » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:28 pm

Hi, I started D02 at January, submitted lessons 1-3, but I felt somewhat lonely there :-), so I decided to join the current lessons and in the intervals continue with lessons 4-7.
I recorded everything for this lesson, but before I submit it I would like to ask if what I have recorded here is an improvisation. I did not exactly understand what I should do, play freely whatever I want using these 6 notes and without repeating? Is what I did OK?
Thank you and sorry for the bad picture quality..

[media]https://youtu.be/1vY__185M5w&[/media]

Laura Staats

Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Laura Staats » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:52 pm

That seems like a fine submission for improv to me.

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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Haris Karachristianidis » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:32 pm

Thank you, what is the purpose of improvisations? It seems important, because we are advised to practice on it several times a week.

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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Mariano Martínez Gallego » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:10 pm

Haris Karachristianidis wrote:Thank you, what is the purpose of improvisations? It seems important, because we are advised to practice on it several times a week.
Hello Haris


improvisations :bravo:

Learn the notes.
and
compose.
:chitarrista:

Un saludo
Mariano.
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Haris Karachristianidis
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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Haris Karachristianidis » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:11 pm

Isn't the suggested speed of 144 per quarter too quick for Krieger Menuet?

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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by CarlWestman » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:22 pm

Mariano Martínez Gallego wrote: improvisations :bravo:

Learn the notes.
and
compose.
On the contrary ... on p. 85 of D02, we are instructed, "Never play the same thing twice, because it
would cease to be improvisation, and would become composition."

Nicely done, Haris. You might wish to also try moving your hand around on the strings, sometimes closer to the saddle, and other times, near (or on) the fretboard, to get different timbres.

w/r/t speed, I think you are right - and it may be worth noting that the Delcamp video example does not always strictly follow the written tempo of the music. If my counting is right, there are 144 quarter beats in the entire piece (24 measures x 3 beats/measure x 2 - each is played twice). That gives 144. The tempo of 144 bpm implies the piece should take 1:00 to complete, but the video example takes 1:17. That implies a tempo of about 112. Anyway, when I record, I am going to try to play it as close to 112 as I can cleanly get it. It has a bit of a melancholy feel to it, so a faster tempo does not seem like it would be an improvement over the video example.

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Re: D02 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Mariano Martínez Gallego » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:15 am

CarlWestman wrote:
Mariano Martínez Gallego wrote: improvisations :bravo:

Learn the notes.
and
compose.
On the contrary ... on p. 85 of D02, we are instructed, "Never play the same thing twice, because it
would cease to be improvisation, and would become composition."
Hello CarlWetman

Ok.
composition = your expontaneidad, without repetition. OK


Nicely done, Haris. You might wish to also try moving your hand around on the strings, sometimes closer to the saddle, and other times, near (or on) the fretboard, to get different timbres.
Normally, you improvisas what you learn in each lesson. Damp, arpegios, Slurs,rest stroke..... etc.

OK.
w/r/t speed, I think you are right - and it may be worth noting that the Delcamp video example does not always strictly follow the written tempo of the music. If my counting is right, there are 144 quarter beats in the entire piece (24 measures x 3 beats/measure x 2 - each is played twice). That gives 144. The tempo of 144 bpm implies the piece should take 1:00 to complete, but the video example takes 1:17. That implies a tempo of about 112. Anyway, when I record, I am going to try to play it as close to 112 as I can cleanly get it. It has a bit of a melancholy feel to it, so a faster tempo does not seem like it would be an improvement over the video example.
The score is less complicated. :contrat:

Mr. Delcamp, put a lot of its part, decorate it.

144, very fast speed. For a sound clean.

CarlWestman, hope to see your video.

A greeting :bye:
Mariano.

Note: Sorry for my English :oops:
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