D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

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EricKatz
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by EricKatz » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:28 pm

Thanks for this clarification, Goran!

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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:05 am

Eric, I don't particularly like the glissandos either :D

Regarding the use of grace notes, or not using grace notes, there can be several reasons for the inconsistencies. For example, the grace notes can be part of the original composition, but the slide marks added by the editor as they are specific to the used fingering. It could be said that grace notes are more 'mandatory', and the slide marks fall in the domain of interpretation.

There's also the difference that the grace notes generally fall on the beat, when they precede the main note. When the grace note is added after the main note, as in bar 14, it means to slide and then to momentarily keep the note ringing before actually playing the next note. In my opinion, for example the 2nd beat of bar 14 could be substituted with a dotted quaver chord that slides into a semiquaver chord. If the grace note was replaced by just a slide, it would mean to start the slide slightly later and play the next note immediately after arriving at correct fret.

Bars 6-7: Adding a grace note 'e' to the end of bar 6 in my opinion would make the slide earlier so that the 'e' would have a chance to ring momentarily before actually plucking it along with the bass note 'a'. Adding a grace note 'd' to the beginning of bar 7 (effectively moving the slide to bar 7 alone) would mean that 'd' was to be played (again) on beat 1 of bar 7 at the same time with bass note 'a', and to slide to 'e' only after that.

Bar 19: Here is the same problem. The use of a grace note after the first crotchet would call for glissando that ends up at 'c' slightly before the 2nd beat. If the grace note was placed before the 2nd beat, it would mean to pluck 'e' then slide down to 'c'.

In essence, the difference is, the grace note always has a duration of fixed pitch (i.e. non-sliding duration) which is taken either of the previous note (when the grace note is connected to the note preceding it), or the next note (when the grace note is connected to the next note). When just a slide is marked, there is no duration to be spent at the destination before playing the note, but the note should be plucked immediately on arrival to the destination note, and the arrival should happen exactly on the beat. As discussed before, it's up to the performer whether to slide audibly or not when no grace note is marked. The notation used by professor Delcamp does not seem to differentiate, and I think that's a good thing, as it will give more freedom to the performer based on individual taste.

There also seems to be a convention that a grace note connected to the last note of a bar is moved to the beginning of the next bar. I believe that is a restriction of the software used for the sheet music. Generally in music the grace note always precedes the main note, so I think the only way to accomplish a grace note following the main note, is to attach the grace note to the next note, and add a slide marker between the grace note and the previous main note, which is why the grace notes that should be the last notes in bar move to first notes of the next bar. That's a clever workaround which works as long as the piece doesn't end up with a grace note :lol:

I've probably said all this before, and you've disagreed with parts of it, and it's very possible that it will all happen again the next year :D
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Pat Hargan » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:39 pm

:bravo: Håvard, that's a brave tempo!

Here's my attempt. I haven't had much time to spend on this lesson, but I wanted to get a video up before the next lesson is published tomorrow.

[media]https://youtu.be/g77aXMVV9l8[/media]
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:51 am

:bravo: Pat! You managed all the difficult sections well. If you had little more time to be spent with the piece, I think the result would have sounded less mechanical and heavy. The only general advice I can give is to focus more on the melody. In bar 5, try not to audibly slide back to 'e'.

I'm terribly late with my own recording, but will try to do it at the end of the week.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:30 pm

I would be tempted to say that I'm not too happy with my Arrependida recording, especially as it took so long to get it done, but the fact is that for various reasons I haven't been practicing during this lesson as much as I should have, and before today I hadn't touched my guitar since last weekend, having been sick with cold. Considering the circumstances the recording turned out as well as I possibly could hope, and it highlights the same issues I'm having during practice.

There's a wrong note that I keep playing in this recording at bar 20 and 84 ( I play B instead of g#). I can't remember that ever happening during practice.

Thank you for listening, and even though this lesson is already over, any comments will be appreciated! I think this piece will be the one I will occasionally revisit in the future, and possibly perform for an audience when I feel I'm up to it.

[media]https://youtu.be/1QLo0avIYXM[/media]
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Pat Hargan » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:11 pm

:bravo: Well done, Marko! I really enjoyed your playing of this piece, which was very fluent and musical. I wish I could play it as well myself, but I have been away for most of this lesson and now I'm working on the next lesson's pieces. But, like you, I think that I will be returning to this one when I have more time.

One problem I had was in finishing the glissandos at the correct fret, but you don't seem to have that problem. Another part that I found difficult but that you played very smoothly was bar 126 (actually, I found this bar harder than the boxed section, which doesn't require much change in the left-hand fingering). The only slight fault I can mention - also something I had trouble with - is that you cut some of the melody notes short at the ends of the phrases. It is quite tricky not to catch the treble strings with the LH fingers that are playing the internal chord accompaniment.

I hope you are getting over your cold. See you in the next lesson! :bye:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:33 am

:merci: Pat!

I was rather surprised myself that all the difficult glissandos did hit the correct fret in this take. Usually I go over at least once when playing the piece :D I suppose that you may have a disadvantage there with the cutaway making it more difficult to determine the correct position. At least I tend to find the 10th fret by its proximity to guitar body, and in this specific case when I hold my left hand in certain way, and slide up to the 10th fret with finger 2, the pinky side of my left hand will collide with the guitar body when I'm at the correct fret.

Regarding 126, I agree that it's one of the most difficult bars in the piece (along with 38, 112 and 113), and the boxed section isn't actually very difficult technically once you learn how to place your left hand fingers in the correct pattern. The boxed section was quite nasty to read in the beginning though. For me bar 126 required lots of slow practice. Just repeating that bar alone. After that I started with the last beat of bar 124, and played through measures 125 and 126. The thing to notice was that leaving the index finger flat in barre position will make playing bar 126 much more difficult than just fretting the 1st string with the tip of the finger, and then even letting it go on the 2nd beat when reaching for the 7th fret with finger 3. I ended up keeping my index finger flat all the way from the beginning of bar 123 until the last beat of bar 125, where I move it to fret the 1st string only when moving to 5th position.

The next challenge was to work out the right hand fingering for bar 126, as I sometimes managed it and sometimes tripped with the right hand. The first beat requires to skip the 3rd string, leaving a gap between i and m, which is something I have always found awkward, but there really isn't any options without involving the use of 'ch', which I don't want to do. For the second quaver the only thing that makes sense is to use 'm'. Then second beat has to start with 'a' as it is already on that string, and didn't play the previous note. After that it gets interesting. The next note is to played on 3rd string, and there is no finger currently allocated for that. Basically two options: 1) as the 1st string doesn't need to be played anymore you could offset 'm' and 'a', so that 'm' plays the next note, then 'a', then 'm', or 2) offset 'i' to play the 3rd string, and continue with 'i', 'm' and 'i'. Written down like this, it's easy to see that the 2nd option is an easy choice to make, as it doesn't involve m-a alternation, but before I took the time to analyze the right hand options, I for some reason chose to use the first option, and that was making things unnecessarily difficult for me.

Having thought about this, I think the reason why I instinctively chose the first option was that for me the string of the index finger defines the vertical hand position. So when having to skip strings such as at the first beat of bar 126, it's the 'm' and 'a' fingers that will do the reaching, and the hand still remains in vertical position defined by the index finger at 4th string. When having to choose between the two ways of closing the gap between 'i' and 'm&a' the first way didn't involve moving the hand position, which is always a bit risky move, so I naturally went with that option. But after moving to use the 2nd way, I would play that bar much more consistently.

Watching your video, you seem to use the RH fingering that I prefer, so I guess your difficulties have more to do with left hand.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by EricKatz » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:07 pm

I think I can't do better in today's recording session. :desole:
But I got a feeling that tomorrow someone is going to publish certain information that will make me play this piece over and over again in the next weeks :lol:

[media]https://youtu.be/NuORCRUY-9U[/media]

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:27 am

Nothing to apologize for, Eric! It's a difficult piece and hard not to make any mistakes when recording. Clearly you have managed most of the technical challenges this piece has to offer. What remains to do is polishing and fine tuning of the interpretation.

One tip: If you'd wish to avoid turning / rearranging of the music sheet pages when playing, sellotape them together at the edges (preferably in the correct order). That will allow you to have 4 pages on a standard music stand at the same time (the side supports of the stand have to be extended though). Naturally that requires one-sided printing as well.

I'm looking forward for the announcement of the exam piece as well, but find it unlikely that the same piece would be used two years in a row. That never happened for the other levels, at least.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:32 am

Sorry for not commenting earlier.

:bravo: Pat. I think it is a very good start, and you'll develop it quickly if you want to put it in your repertoire.

:bravo: Marko. Very nice slides, and good thrills. Really enjoyed it :casque: I don't know exactly what it is, but there is something in in bars 13-15 (etc...) Maybe slightly altered duration of the notes (the last note in bar 14)or different emphasis on the slides than what I've got playing in my head. Or maybe it is my version that is different (due to too much playing without comparing to Prof. Delcamp or others recording.)

:bravo: Eric. I think you've managed to find a good balance of not overdoing and not neglecting the slides :)

I wanted to make a new recording... but I'm not sure if I'll find the time to record (must be today... unless it is repeated as the exam piece)
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:10 am

:merci: Håvard!

That was really well spotted regarding bar 14. I don't always play it that way, and certainly didn't plan the durations of individual notes. What I wanted to do was to make the rhythm a bit more loose, perhaps add some swing to it. After listening to both our versions in half speed, what I think is happening that after the 2nd beat of that bar I start the slide up a bit early, play the notes of 3rd beat a bit ahead of the beat as well, and start the slide down slightly early, but do the slide slower (or lower) than usual letting the rhythm catch back up. The end result is that the slides now start right on the beats instead of half way in-between them. I don't think I would enjoy playing them that way regularly, but that was more of a 'feel of the moment' thing. But as muscle memory can be strong, I probably should pay some attention to that bar when I revisit this piece. Thanks for pointing it out!
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:01 pm

I managed to squeeze in a short recording session. One warm-up take and then this one.
[media]https://youtu.be/NPW8T17NjFM[/media]
I think this is quite representative of how I usually play it. The end of the trio usually is better, but if that part goes well I stumble in another part. My aim with this recording was to enjoy the playing more than focusing too much on getting it "perfect".
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Marko Räsänen » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:28 pm

Håvard, in my opinion your first recording was much better from listener's point of view. Your playing in this video was at times out of control, there were a lot of notes that didn't sustain at all, unexpected changes in tuning (no doubt caused by left hand tension) and volume, and in fact some of the notes were played so hard that the sound reminded me of a banjo. It could be just the recording though, I don't know because I wasn't there. But I would suggest in general playing with a softer touch, as you have in my opinion done this year compared to previous years. Could also be that your strings are up for change, and part of the issue was you trying to get more sound out of them. Are you still playing with EJ-46's? Perhaps give a go for a different brand for a change?

Having said that, I think you're pretty much in there with the first and second parts (although bar 43 still requires work to make it sound in tune). It's the trio part that requires most of the work, and I'm not talking about those specific hard spots we all know, but for example bars 101 and 102 where it's difficult to hear where the melody lies, because those notes are a little bit drowned by harmony and bass notes (again could be a recording issue). Try to bring the melody out a bit more, and make it sing using vibrato when possible (in trio section in general). The feel should be overall light in my opinion in this section, so soft touch will work especially here. In bar 115 your placing down of finger 4 on the first string seems to cut the melody b#, which doesn't sound good. You had the same problem in previous recording. Perhaps look at that measure more closely. I'm not sure if it's your right hand that hits the 2nd string, or the barre losing contact when 4th finger is placed down. I think it's fairly important to play the accompaniment very softly in that bar and the next one, so that melody doesn't drown. Also note that in bar 107 the bass note isn't played but keeps sustaining from the previous bar.

I also think it's fairly important that you practice the piece also with much slower tempo, so that you don't keep perpetuating those slight inaccuracies into your muscle memory. In general during practice every time you do a mistake, you should stop and play that bar or phrase slowly and correctly a few times. If the same mistake keeps happening at the same place regardless of slow repetitions, you then need to analyze it more. Also do the practice while reading the sheet music. Playing from memory it's much harder to slow down and repeat the same bar or phrase over and over again. Besides to correct mistakes you need to relearn the piece, and that will be very difficult to do if you play from muscle memory alone, because then you are essentially re-playing movements previously memorized, not learning how to do the movements in a new way. I think it's unfortunate that you memorized the piece already a year ago, because I'm hearing in your playing many of the things you didn't know how to do better a year ago, but have learned to do better during this year.

There were many good things in this recording, for example the 2nd section was generally well played, and with the right mood, but because of the issues I outlined above, it didn't always get too clear to me, how did you intend to play a certain part? Perhaps I could sum it up that you seemed to force the interpretation out of your guitar a bit too much.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 09

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Sun May 11, 2014 6:34 pm

:merci: Marko. A very good summary (forcing the intrepetation) :D New string brand was already bought, and are now ready for the big test:-) (exam)
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