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celime
Posts: 145
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Post by celime » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:17 pm

I make a call to the forum members to help me to list here any interestings informations on Miguel Llobet.
This is to make a biography inside the forum, for the end of this year.

To authenticate, please give the source from where you find the informations.
For the compositions, it should be nice to have the opus numbers, dates and a+: some comments.
For oral quotations, anectdotes; who says what, where, when, etc.

Basic sources:

Forum:
http://www.delcamp.net/auteurs/fr/5_mod ... et_fr.html

In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia.
Miguel Llobet. (2007, December 29).
Retrieved 12:10, January 11, 2008,
from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =180812461

celime
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Dated LLOBET compositions

Post by celime » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:23 pm

The actual list of compositions, to be completed, is on the french forum : http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... =2&t=15068
Thanks, Celime

Robert Phillips

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by Robert Phillips » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:24 pm

As you may know, most of the biography of Llobet published at Wikipedia was written by me. Much of it is excerpted from my doctoral dissertation on the influence of Llobet. Unfortunately, I know of no further information on Llobet's life, but perhaps your call for information will bring some previously unknown information to light.

There is an extensive archive in the possession of Fernando Alonso in Barcelona, but Sr. Alonso is unwilling to allow anyone to examine it. The Museum of Music in Barcelona is interested in purchasing the archive, but has thus far been unable to raise the money. Alonzo's price is based on an appraisal made by the museum's archivist. (Perhaps a project to raise money for the museum to make this purchase might be in our future.)

In the meantime, please allow me to share some information regarding Llobet's relationship with Segovia as was related to me in a letter from Hector Garcia, who you may know was Pujol's principle disciple. The following is a direct excerpt from my dissertation:

The subject of Segovia's relationship with Llobet is one area on which Pujol, by way of Garcia, was able to shed some light. An early edition of Llobet's arrangements of de Falla's Siete Canciones includes a biographic sketch of Llobet written by Pujol. This set of arrangements is no longer in print, and the edition that is most commonly used has no such biography. Garcia is in possession of this biography. The last paragraph states "Among his students were guitarists like the great José Rey de la Torre and the world famous Andres Segovia." There can be no clearer refutation of Segovia's claims to being self- taught than this. Furthermore, Garcia was kind enough to correspond with the author, explaining Pujol's role in the complex Segovia-Llobet relationship. A facsimile of this letter is to be found in Appendix B. Mr. Garcia wrote:
De acuerdo con anécdotas contadas a mí por el Maestro
Emilio Pujol, Andrés Segovia le pidió tomar lecciones de él. El
Maestro Pujol declinó la petición y recomendó a Segovia que
tomará lecciones de Miguel Llobet quien aparte de la ayuda
musico-instrumental, podría ayudarlo a darse a conocer a través de
los contactos que Llobet, por ser el guitarrista-concertista más
conocido, tenía en toda Europa....
Pujol le prometió que hablaria con Llobet y que estaba
segurro que debido a la amistad entre ellos, éste accederia a la
petición. Asi fué, y Segovia comenzó a recibir lecciónes de
Miguel Llobet, unas cuatro o cinco. Al cabo de las mismas Llobet
le informó a Pujol que él havia accedido a tomar a Segovia como
estudiante, pero dada la rebeldía de Segovia a seguir las
indicaciones de Llobet, éste se verá obligado a terminar las clases
con Segovia17 (Garcia 2002).


In one discussion Garcia mentioned that Segovia had more lessons with Llobet,
but he did not clarify when Llobet terminated Segovia's lessons. Given the anecdotal
nature of this letter it is difficult to know precisely how long Segovia studied under
Llobet or how influential Llobet may have been, particularly in view of the above
revelation. Furthermore, this would seem to be at odds with Pujol's biographical
statement. If, indeed, Llobet terminated Segovia after only a few lessons, it would not be
likely that he would want Segovia to be mentioned as a former student. No clear
conclusions can be drawn, other than that Segovia did indeed study with Llobet for a
time. This in itself may provide more certainty concerning the subject than there has
previously been. Given that Segovia claimed to be self-taught, and that no other teacher
emerges, one is left with the conclusion that Llobet must have exerted some influence on
Segovia. This influence is, according to Ronald Purcell (Llobet 1989 Volume 1, ii),
audible by comparing Llobet's Parlophone Electric recordings with Segovia's Angel
recordings, ZB3896.

The final paragraph of the letter explains that Segovia, in an effort to utilize Llobet's contacts to promote his own career, proposed to Llobet's agent that he organize two concerts, a Llobet performance and one by Segovia, which would be advertised as a competition to determine who was the better guitarist. Garcia explained that the agent brought the idea to Llobet, who was rather insulted by the idea.

Pujol's legacy includes a biography of Tárrega, which devotes a chapter to Llobet.
Garcia is presently preparing an English translation of this book for publication. He was
kind enough to share this chapter with the author. It is quite informative, giving some
details of his study with Antonio Jiménez Manjón and of Manjón's life that are not
included elsewhere. These, however, are not necessary for this paper. There are also in
the archive a number of concert programs of performances by Pujol, as well as by
Tárrega. Some of these are in Garcia's possession, and are discussed in the section of this
chapter on concert programs.

One final detail gleaned from the conversation with Garcia is the subject of Llobet's actual feelings toward Tárrega. Ophee (Ophee 1981) indicates that Llobet may have whispered some dark secret to Domingo Prat and to Pujol. Garcia is not aware of any such secret and, as far as he knows, Llobet had only the greatest respect for his teacher. According to Pujol's biography, there was an area in which Llobet and Tárrega differed in their artistic opinions. "Pero a pesar de su profunda admiración por Tárrega, su maestro, el sentido estético de Llobet no era el mismo; difería por razones de natural concepción, diferencias de edad y circumstancias de ambiente. Y mientras Tárrega, enamorado de la pureza del cuarteto clasico en su homogénea varedad, hubiera hecho de las seis cuerdos de su instrumento una sóla unidad, Llobet, atraído por diversidad de timbres de la orquestra, hubiera hecho de cada cuerdo unoa guitarra distinta"18 (Pujol 1978). This is, however a well-known artistic difference and sheds no additional light on the subject.


Translation of Garcia letter:
According to anecdotes related to me by Maestro Emilio Pujol, Andrés Segovia asked to take
lessons with him. Maestro Pujol declined the petition and recommended that Segovia take lessons with Miguel Llobet who, apart from musical-instrumental help, could help by acquainting him with the contacts that Llobet, being the best known concert guitarist, had throughout Europe.
Pujol promised that he would speak with Llobet and that he was sure that owing to the friendship
between them, he would accede with the petition. Thus it was, and Segovia began to receive lessons from Miguel Llobet, some four or five. At the end of the same Llobet informed Pujol that he had agreed to take Segovia as a student, but given the rebelliousness of Segovia in following Llobet's indications he would be obliged to terminate the classes with Segovia.

celime
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by celime » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:40 pm

rguitphil wrote:As you may know, most of the biography of Llobet published at Wikipedia was written by me. Much of it is excerpted from my doctoral dissertation on the influence of Llobet.
It is a very complete biography. Hard to improve that work by means of the only public sources I can access. Please receive my admiration for this impressive work.
Unfortunately, I know of no further information on Llobet's life, but perhaps your call for information will bring some previously unknown information to light.
I hope to glean more information before 2009. Llobet seems to be a mysterious man.
There is an extensive archive in the possession of Fernando Alonso in Barcelona, but Sr. Alonso is unwilling to allow anyone to examine it. The Museum of Music in Barcelona is interested in purchasing the archive, but has thus far been unable to raise the money. Alonzo's price is based on an appraisal made by the museum's archivist. (Perhaps a project to raise money for the museum to make this purchase might be in our future.)
It is very regrettable. Is it possible to have some ideas of the contents and the importance of these archives?
In the meantime, please allow me to share some information regarding Llobet's relationship with Segovia as was related to me in a letter from Hector Garcia, who you may know was Pujol's principle disciple. The following is a direct excerpt from my dissertation:

The subject of Segovia's relationship with Llobet is one area on which Pujol, by way of Garcia, was able to shed some light.
An early edition of Llobet's arrangements of de Falla's Siete Canciones includes a biographic sketch of Llobet written by Pujol. This set of arrangements is no longer in print, and the edition that is most commonly used has no such biography. Garcia is in possession of this biography. The last paragraph states "Among his students were guitarists like the great José Rey de la Torre and the world famous Andres Segovia." There can be no clearer refutation of Segovia's claims to being self- taught than this. Furthermore, Garcia was kind enough to correspond with the author, explaining Pujol's role in the complex Segovia-Llobet relationship. A facsimile of this letter is to be found in Appendix B. Mr. Garcia wrote:
How do you know that ? Do you have a copy of that early edition ?
De acuerdo con anécdotas contadas a mí por el Maestro
Emilio Pujol, Andrés Segovia le pidió tomar lecciones de él. El
Maestro Pujol declinó la petición y recomendó a Segovia que
tomará lecciones de Miguel Llobet quien aparte de la ayuda
musico-instrumental, podría ayudarlo a darse a conocer a través de
los contactos que Llobet, por ser el guitarrista-concertista más
conocido, tenía en toda Europa....
Pujol le prometió que hablaria con Llobet y que estaba
segurro que debido a la amistad entre ellos, éste accederia a la
petición. Asi fué, y Segovia comenzó a recibir lecciónes de
Miguel Llobet, unas cuatro o cinco. Al cabo de las mismas Llobet
le informó a Pujol que él havia accedido a tomar a Segovia como
estudiante, pero dada la rebeldía de Segovia a seguir las
indicaciones de Llobet, éste se verá obligado a terminar las clases
con Segovia17 (Garcia 2002).
__________________

Translation of Garcia letter:
According to anecdotes related to me by Maestro Emilio Pujol, Andrés Segovia asked to take
lessons with him. Maestro Pujol declined the petition and recommended that Segovia take lessons with Miguel Llobet who, apart from musical-instrumental help, could help by acquainting him with the contacts that Llobet, being the best known concert guitarist, had throughout Europe.
Pujol promised that he would speak with Llobet and that he was sure that owing to the friendship
between them, he would accede with the petition. Thus it was, and Segovia began to receive lessons from Miguel Llobet, some four or five. At the end of the same Llobet informed Pujol that he had agreed to take Segovia as a student, but given the rebelliousness of Segovia in following Llobet's indications he would be obliged to terminate the classes with Segovia.
The last sentence is funny, and indeed in the idea that I made of the character of Ségovia!
In one discussion Garcia mentioned that Segovia had more lessons with Llobet, but he did not clarify when Llobet terminated Segovia's lessons. Given the anecdotal nature of this letter it is difficult to know precisely how long Segovia studied under Llobet or how influential Llobet may have been, particularly in view of the above revelation. Furthermore, this would seem to be at odds with Pujol's biographical statement. If, indeed, Llobet terminated Segovia after only a few lessons, it would not be likely that he would want Segovia to be mentioned as a former student. No clear conclusions can be drawn, other than that Segovia did indeed study with Llobet for a time. This in itself may provide more certainty concerning the subject than there has previously been. Given that Segovia claimed to be self-taught, and that no other teacher emerges, one is left with the conclusion that Llobet must have exerted some influence on Segovia. This influence is, according to Ronald Purcell (Llobet 1989 Volume 1, ii), audible by comparing Llobet's Parlophone Electric recordings with Segovia's Angel recordings, ZB3896.
...
The final paragraph of the letter explains that Segovia, in an effort to utilize Llobet's contacts to promote his own career, proposed to Llobet's agent that he organize two concerts, a Llobet performance and one by Segovia, which would be advertised as a competition to determine who was the better guitarist. Garcia explained that the agent brought the idea to Llobet, who was rather insulted by the idea.
In the point of view of the virtuosity, it seems to me that Ségovia would have been losing the competition.
Pujol's legacy includes a biography of Tárrega, which devotes a chapter to Llobet.
Garcia is presently preparing an English translation of this book for publication. He was kind enough to share this chapter with the author. It is quite informative, giving some details of his study with Antonio Jiménez Manjón and of Manjón's life that are not included elsewhere. These, however, are not necessary for this paper. There are also in the archive a number of concert programs of performances by Pujol, as well as by Tárrega. Some of these are in Garcia's possession, and are discussed in the section of this chapter on concert programs.
Do you know when thhe book will be available ?
One final detail gleaned from the conversation with Garcia is the subject of Llobet's actual feelings toward Tárrega. Ophee (Ophee 1981) indicates that Llobet may have whispered some dark secret to Domingo Prat and to Pujol. Garcia is not aware of any such secret and, as far as he knows, Llobet had only the greatest respect for his teacher. According to Pujol's biography, there was an area in which Llobet and Tárrega differed in their artistic opinions. "Pero a pesar de su profunda admiración por Tárrega, su maestro, el sentido estético de Llobet no era el mismo; difería por razones de natural concepción, diferencias de edad y circumstancias de ambiente. Y mientras Tárrega, enamorado de la pureza del cuarteto clasico en su homogénea varedad, hubiera hecho de las seis cuerdos de su instrumento una sóla unidad, Llobet, atraído por diversidad de timbres de la orquestra, hubiera hecho de cada cuerdo unoa guitarra distinta"18 (Pujol 1978). This is, however a well-known artistic difference and sheds no additional light on the subject.
Effectively, this detail is told in the book of Tom and Mary Anne Evans. (In french, "le grand livre de la guitare" - "english? the great book of the guitar").
___________

Thank you very much, Rguitphil, for thoses informations and your impressive biography work.

Célime

Robert Phillips

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by Robert Phillips » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:30 pm

It is a very complete biography. Hard to improve that work by means of the only public sources I can access. Please receive my admiration for this impressive work.
Thank you, you are most kind.
It is very regrettable. Is it possible to have some ideas of the contents and the importance of these archives?
The archive contains reviews of every concert Llobet played that was reviewed, postcards to his family that he wrote after every concert, the original MS copies of all of his compositions, transcription, arrangements, etc., a number of compositions written for him by other composers that were never published (including a Choros written for Llobet in 1928 by H. Villa-Lobos), letters to and from friends and colleagues that most likely include de Falla, Ravel, Debussy, Richard Strauss, Ricardo Vines, F. Garcia Lorca, Pujol, and much more. This is all according to Josep Maria Mangado, who is, as far as I am concerned, the leading authority on the guitar in Catalunya.

How do you know that ? Do you have a copy of that early edition ?
I do not have a copy. This was told to me by H. Garcia.

Do you know when thhe book will be available ?
I'm afraid not.

eales

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by eales » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:13 am

Celime, Is anyone else working on the translation of the biography? JF sent it to me and I believe it was from you? I have finished the first page and will continue.
Should I start a new thread and upload the complete file? and update as I complete each page?

celime
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by celime » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:27 am

eales wrote:Celime, Is anyone else working on the translation of the biography? JF sent it to me and I believe it was from you? I have finished the first page and will continue.
Should I start a new thread and upload the complete file? and update as I complete each page?
Oops - I just checked here on the french forum: http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... m.php?f=70

I see the french forum members Manic, Azalais and Fgriffon are working on some parts of the Llobet english translation.

I think the best is to go to the french forum (http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... m.php?f=70), put your work there with a small message, then wait and see...

Anyway, thanks.
Celime

Azalais

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by Azalais » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:00 pm

I confess that I have not had time to help with this project... but if someone would like to send me a few parts that have NOT been done yet, I will be happy to do them... (from French or Spanish into English)

eales

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by eales » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:09 am

Azalais you've been far too busy - but maybe you could check over the stuff I've done? JF asked me to upload it as I go - I've copied in the first page as text [there are photos in the original document but they don't come out]
:merci:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... 84#p144284

Azalais

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by Azalais » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:28 pm

At the very end you might want to check this sentence (I wasn't sure it the "2" was a footnote... also "des" ??
Their instruments included Spanish mandolins des guitars, lutes, and archlutes2.
Otherwise it looks perfect and is very interesting!

User avatar
Denis Paradis
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: Sept-Iles, Qc

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by Denis Paradis » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:13 pm

eales wrote:Azalais you've been far too busy - but maybe you could check over the stuff I've done? JF asked me to upload it as I go - I've copied in the first page as text [there are photos in the original document but they don't come out]
:merci:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... 84#p144284
Hi all,

I'll be working on it tomorrow, I'm just wondering if any progress had been made since June?

I can't find any more (new) material apart from what was posted on that thread (In the french forum)...

Denis
“Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music”

- Rachmaninov

celime
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: MIGUEL LLOBET biography

Post by celime » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:46 pm

Azalais wrote:At the very end you might want to check this sentence (I wasn't sure it the "2" was a footnote... also "des" ??
Their instruments included Spanish mandolins des guitars, lutes, and archlutes2.
Otherwise it looks perfect and is very interesting!
Sorry for the late answers :oops:.

The originals files are here:
PDF: http://home.scarlet.be/cm/llobet.pdf
DOC: http://home.scarlet.be/cm/llobet.doc
Les instruments utilisés étaient des mandolines espagnoles, des guitares, luths, et archiluths (footnote3).
Their instruments included Spanish mandolins, guitars, lutes, and archlutes³.
Eden7c wrote:
eales wrote:Azalais you've been far too busy - but maybe you could check over the stuff I've done? JF asked me to upload it as I go - I've copied in the first page as text [there are photos in the original document but they don't come out]
:merci:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... 84#p144284
Hi all,

I'll be working on it tomorrow, I'm just wondering if any progress had been made since June?

I can't find any more (new) material apart from what was posted on that thread (In the french forum)...

Denis
I think it is better to post in the related french forum (http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... m.php?f=70).
Thanks
Celime

celime
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: Belgium

Biographie LLOBET MIGUEL (1878-1938)

Post by celime » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:18 pm

Voici le résultat (EN) de notre travail sur la biographie de Miguel Llobet. (déposé sur les forums EN, FR, IT, SP)
La version portugaise est déposée sur le forum espagnol.
:bye: Célime
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