Double (suite Bm unaccompanied violin) critique request

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Topics archived from Public Space and its subforums after a long period of inactivity, or redundant for some other reason. This section is read-only.
hav

Double (suite Bm unaccompanied violin) critique request

Post by hav » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:20 pm

I was digging around in my old music and ran across an old hand scribbled score for the Double from the Suite in Bm for Unaccompanied Violin. I used to play this and remember it as being moderately tough on the hands, so I thought I'd give my hands a little test to see if they could still handle it.

I've obviously forgotten how I used to finger it because several bits feel too un-natural - but I went ahead and started reworking it for fun. So here's a vid of the first minute and a half or so - section 1 and the beginning of section 2. Not up to speed, of course - and the dern vid became a bit dark part way through (a cloud passed overhead). I tried lightening the vid but it seems to have caused a little sync problem between the video and the audio toward the end of the vid - but not too bad. I left the .mov file for quicktime users dark because the lightened version could not be opened by quicktime.

Anyway, before I get this really pushed into my hands, I'd really like some critique from other players. My left hand really passes gas badly on one note (not to say that is the only bad note, of course) but, other than obvious fumbles, can you spot any really terrible fingerings or phrasing etc.?? Am I making it harder than it needs to be (it surprises me that I cannot at ALL remember the fingering I used long ago).

Any thoughts or critique will be greatly appreciated.

http://www.hav.com/junk/videos_04-01-05/

p.s. a newer pass (the "one step back" phase I'm afraid) but the entire piece with my early attempts to add in the stops and finish (re)memorizing the piece is at http://www.hav.com/junk/videos_05-09-05/
Last edited by hav on Wed May 11, 2005 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

BobM

Post by BobM » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:58 am

Hi Hav,

it's been a while. I'm glad to see you around and that you are still doing the videos. I directed a couple of guys from the french site to your page, they wanted to double check on some fingerings for Prelude 1 from VillaLobos. They were very happy to have that resource.

I will be visiting your site probably this week-end since I'm not in my computer now and if I can help then I'll put in my two cents. Is the chat in your site enabled? Will it work with a 56K dial up?

See you around,

Bob

hav

Post by hav » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:13 am

Hey Bob - yes - sure - the chat should work fine over dialups -- the only folks that will have trouble are those with a FW that 1) blocks applets altogether or 2) blocks all ports except 80 (or foolishness like that).

critique of the Double will be much appreciated -- anf have you put up any vids yet?? I got one (in the mail) from a lady in Amsterdam (I think) of the VL prelude - nice to see other folks making vids!!

BobM

Post by BobM » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:18 am

Not yet, but I posted some mp3 here and in the french forum. I'm getting used to all that and I make a lot of mistakes in front of the camera :( But soon. If you want, I'll mail one when I do it.

Btw, I don't know how I configured my FW on my Xp computer, maybe I didn't and is working as default. In any case, I can always modify that...

Bob

hav

Post by hav » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:47 am

HA HA HA - yeah - that dern camera is almost worse than an audience because you KNOW it really shouldn't bother you ... but it does HA HA HA HA

Hey Bob - I posted similar in the french section on pieces we are working on now -- please check the translation there -- it is probably funky -- liiks like "still" as in "still cannot" translates as "motionless" as in "motionless cannot" :-)) --- thanks

have had no critique responses yet --- cople of notes in the NG and email but none about the piece --- I wonder if it has fallen from favor or maybe people nbever played it much --- heck - I really like it ... go figure :-\

hav

Post by hav » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:47 am

p.s. -- I really DO spell beter than that :-)))))

Canbell

Post by Canbell » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:01 pm

On my computer the .wmv video was blurred, but the sound was OK. With the .mov file it was almost the opposite. It might have to do with my configuration though.

I am not familiar with the piece, and it sounds pretty fluent to me, although I would have enjoyed a clearer phrasing (not that I would do half as well...). I couldn't spot a passage in particular, it's just an overall impression. For the fingering, it would help if you could post an image of the measures that trouble you, even if I am not certain any of us can come with better ideas.

By the way, it's very nice of you to make those videos available for us.

hav

Post by hav » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:27 pm

hey canbell - and thanks - unfortunately I don't have a score that I can scan in (only a very old hand scribbled thing that I can't seem to get to scan well enough to read --- but someone did send this link which is the original score - not transcribed for guitar and surely not the transcription I have copied but something you can look at...

if you can locate a transcribed score for BWV 1002 - that has this Double and the Bourree that it does double.

http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/ ... wv1002.pdf

hav

Post by hav » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:31 am

Ann was kind enough to send me a pointer to a source for the score of
the Double (and the Bourree) - I have added a score link on the main guitar stuff page but you can grab the zip at...

http://www.*** Site blocked for copyright reasons ***.com/partitions_t ... ition=2241

...the Double is the 3rd pdf in the zip file there

BobM - if you see this note, please post it to the french forum page I did for this piece (the forum about "things we are working on now" -- I forgot my password to the french forum and, so far I have not received aby responses to my requests for the info :-( -- thanks

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Jean-François Delcamp
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Post by Jean-François Delcamp » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:38 am

hav wrote:... I forgot my password to the french forum and, so far I have not received aby responses to my requests for the info :-( -- thanks

:arrow: I forgot my password = J'ai oublié mon mot de passe
:arrow: Send me a new password = Envoyez moi un nouveau mot de passe
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
:( + ♫ = :)

Canbell

Post by Canbell » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:35 pm

Sorry I was a bit late to respond to your message.

I've listened to the piece a few more times - concentrating on the first part - and, again, it sounds pretty fluent to me. Here are maybe a few hints (but don't take my word for it: as I said I am not really familiar with the piece and I wouldn't play it half as well as you do):
- the piece is a double on a bourrée, so it might help to stress the same beats that are stressed in the piece it is based on. As it is, I feel you do not mark all the beats as much as they should be;
- from time to time, there is a clear melodic line on the basses (e.g. bars 4 and 20) that does not really come out when you play it;
- you play basically every note with the same intensity, and your right hand keeps the same position from beginning to end. You may want to vary the tone a little more, to emphasize the phrasing (I would for example have expected a change of tone between the A sharp at bar 3, which concludes a descending line, and the G that introduces a new line).
- I find the pause on B (bar 10) a little too long; is there any reason why you don't also pause on A at bar 12?

My advice can be totally wrong, take it as mere questions to which your answers might rightly be different from mine.

There is an excellent article by Gérard Rebours (http://g.rebours.free.fr/Gerard_Rebours.html) on another Double by Bach (Sarabande and bourrée in Bm BWV 1002). It's in French unfortunately, but if you can get your automatic translator to translate it in English (it's in PDF though) I think you'll find it worthwhile.

hav

Post by hav » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:29 pm

Hey Canbell - and no problem - I sort of figure most of us have lives outside the forums :D
Canbell wrote:- the piece is a double on a bourrée, so it might help to stress the same beats that are stressed in the piece it is based on. As it is, I feel you do not mark all the beats as much as they should be;
Yes - especially, perhaps in the beginning -- but I think it really is just an issue of better emphasizing a couple of notes as it begins.

It's hard for me to play against, say, Segovia's recording of the Bourree (the double starts before the Bourree and I can't yet keep up for more than a few notes) -- but, if I play the Bourree - the opening at least - against my vid of the Double, it actually fits pretty well. --- Of course, this MIGHT mean that I am playing the Bourree to match the Double :lol: --- geeee - I hope I don't do that!!
Canbell wrote:- from time to time, there is a clear melodic line on the basses (e.g. bars 4 and 20) that does not really come out when you play it;
Again - agreed -- I could/should do better at striking all of the notes there. Also, speed seems an issue as well - play the QT version of the vid using the FF button and I think the bass there will come out better (or maybe I was just focused on listening for it) -- Also, a better mic for recording might help because I really do think the webcam mic is biased toward treble and loses some bass response??

All that said, I do tend to allow some bass notes to ring longer than they should and that seems to sort of turn them into supporting harmony rather than letting them stand out as a line. I'm afraid I do that a LOT in this and other pieces as well. I just don't have my RH back to the point where I can (easily) touch-kill notes with my RH as I play.
Canbell wrote:- you play basically every note with the same intensity, and your right hand keeps the same position from beginning to end. You may want to vary the tone a little more, to emphasize the phrasing (I would for example have expected a change of tone between the A sharp at bar 3, which concludes a descending line, and the G that introduces a new line).
I'm not sure I fully agree with this - exactly. Poor phrasing emphasis seems a general complaint - and I surely agree with that. I could (read "should") certainly better emphasize phrasing in general - but, specifically in the places you note, I'm not sure they really work with color changes (for example). This is a pretty "driving" piece and I think the speed and notes themselves do a pretty good job of insinuating phrases.
Canbell wrote:- I find the pause on B (bar 10) a little too long; is there any reason why you don't also pause on A at bar 12?
(first an excuse :-) ) -- I had spent only a bit over an hour reintroducing this to my poor old hands and I think there was (still is, actually) a bit of very old and deep muscle memory in play as I played.

The tenuto to which you refer is not marked in the handwritten music I had - nor in the printed score I posted later - and I could not justify playing it at all. Then I heard the Segovia recording and there it was. I am guessing that I played with the tenuto long ago and my hands were simply being controlled by that old muscle memory. I also note that there is not a second tenuto in the Segovia rendition -- probably something to do with the Bourree again.

I think that old muscle memory hits several other places as well because there are a couple of spots where my head says "do this" but my hands want to do something else altogether HA HA HA -- it is a VERY strange feeling.

Anyway - yes - it needs a lot of work before I would claim it to be passable - for sure!!

Henry William

Post by Henry William » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:28 pm

hav wrote: critique of the Double will be much appreciated -- anf have you put up any vids yet?? I got one (in the mail) from a lady in Amsterdam (I think) of the VL prelude - nice to see other folks making vids!!
Here is my "critique", it sounds great! Keep it on :D

hav

another vid of practice...

Post by hav » Tue May 10, 2005 4:45 pm

Hi y'all

Just a quick note that I've made a new video of the Double - working on the stops and trying to finish (re)memorizing it.

I hesitate to say anything about it because I think I'm i the "one step back" stage and it sounds really bad with a LOT of missed notes etc. I was never very good at stops so I guess it's fallen back into the almost too bad to bear stage but maybe it'll be better in a bit (I can only hope) -- OR maybe I'll just put it down for a while and pick it up later when I've made some general improvement. Anyway - comments always welcome (appreciated even)

http://www.hav.com/junk/

p.s. also fighting a recently lost thumbnail so a little soft on bass :-(

BobM

Post by BobM » Tue May 10, 2005 5:17 pm

Hi Hav,

I was there. It sounds (and looks) pretty good and you are "relaxing", having a good time with your coffee, pipe and guitar. I could see another guitar, on the background, waiting anxiously to be invited to the party, too. :D

Don't worry, here we'll all be mourning together the loss of your nail. I assure you that we are all praying for the replacement nail to make you happy, though. :D

Now, joke appart, I think that it is sounding much better than before or I'd say the other was sounding right it is the phrasing that is more defined (or refined?) here I guess. Anyway, it's improved quite a bit if I could say so. Congratulations!

Happy guitar!

Bob

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