Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

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Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:49 pm

"And this unknown communal factor often entails disadvantages against musicians who are imposed with these non-musical challenges on the top of the musical ones that are already demanding, making their uphill battle even harder." Tonit

Hi, T,
This, of course, is the sad reality of life as a musician/performer. I don't think things have really changed much over the years. We musicians are truly "Les Poetes Maudit"--the cursed poets. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:11 pm

"Eh? Aside from the relative paucity of such allusions in Shakespeare, you already said that he would've had no time to get such knowledge from books. And now you're saying that only the elite could have gotten that knowledge not from books, but by some kind of elite osmosis that only someone of wealth and breeding could experience." ddray

Hi, D,
Just for clarity . . . the elite upper-class would have had the advantage of a true Renaissance education in the Classics(based in Latin) that old Willie could never have had in his blue-collar roots making it impossible for him to have written the words/works he did. Also, I think it would be quite contrary to all scholarship to say that the "real" WS had a "paucity of illuisons" in his plays as evidenced by such works as: "Julius Caesar," "Richard the III," "Henry V," "Anthony and Cleopatra," "Venus and Adonis," etc.,etc. that required more than a Wikipedia, fill in the blanks knowledge of History. But, again, we're drifting . . . Let me say this: If I sat at a table with 5 supposed novelists--one of whom was an impostor, I could tell you in ten minutes of conversation who was the fake. However, I don't think I could do that with musicians since I've met some very talented musicians who were stifling bores and frankly dumb in anything other than music. Now we're really offshore . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

ddray
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by ddray » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:29 pm

Rognvald wrote:Hi, D,
Just for clarity . . . the elite upper-class would have had the advantage of a true Renaissance education in the Classics(based in Latin) that old Willie could never have had in his blue-collar roots making it impossible for him to have written the words/works he did.
The same could be said of Jonson, but there's no "Jonson authorship debate". And subject matter doesn't equal allusions. The subject matter of Shakespeare's plays is such that could have been known by any literate person who could get hold of Holinshed's Chronicles, Tacitus or Livy. Milton is *full* of Classical allusions, more often than not ingenious ones. Shakespeare simply is not.

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:48 pm

ddray wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Rognvald wrote:Hi, D,
Just for clarity . . . the elite upper-class would have had the advantage of a true Renaissance education in the Classics(based in Latin) that old Willie could never have had in his blue-collar roots making it impossible for him to have written the words/works he did.
The same could be said of Jonson, but there's no "Jonson authorship debate". And subject matter doesn't equal allusions. The subject matter of Shakespeare's plays is such that could have been known by any literate person who could get hold of Holinshed's Chronicles, Tacitus or Livy. Milton is *full* of Classical allusions, more often than not ingenious ones. Shakespeare simply is not.
Hi, D,
The "Classical" allusions in Jonson's plays would, in my opinion, be accurately described/depicted in your opinion/remarks about WS. They certainly could have been lifted from the "Chronicles." However, WS's work is resplendent with rich and creative language that would not be available to a writer who simply looked for literary nuances to enhance his writing. The literary result would be, in a best-case scenario, contrived. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In music, an F# above middle C can never be anything else other than what appears on paper. However, Literature is open to interpretation--some, of course, is closer to the Truth than others and some answers are better than others. This, of course, is the domain of academia as it has been throughout History. Speaking of Tacitus, I have one of his greatest treasures-- "Germania" which is one of the great reads in Classical History describing the Germanic Tribes of Central and Northern Europe as recorded by Historians, Roman Legionnaires, Myth and some creative fancy by this great 1st Century A.D. historian. . . well worth reading if you can find it. Playing again... without the Holinshed Chronicles . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Tonit
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Tonit » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:25 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:49 pm
"And this unknown communal factor often entails disadvantages against musicians who are imposed with these non-musical challenges on the top of the musical ones that are already demanding, making their uphill battle even harder." Tonit

Hi, T,
This, of course, is the sad reality of life as a musician/performer. I don't think things have really changed much over the years. We musicians are truly "Les Poetes Maudit"--the cursed poets. Playing again . . . Rognvald
True but if you think in the order of centuries instead of decades, it has been shifting from the time with more definitive demands in different faiths, or culture related thereto, for example. It goes without saying that the situation in some territories with minority believers historically have had no base of this kind at all. For me music itself has been something to worship and is about soul and spirituality, and anybody saying or implying there is nothing in it disappoints me.

ddray
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by ddray » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:43 pm

Final comment on the Shakespeare thing:
Rognvald wrote:The "Classical" allusions in Jonson's plays would, in my opinion, be accurately described/depicted in your opinion/remarks about WS. They certainly could have been lifted from the "Chronicles." However, WS's work is resplendent with rich and creative language that would not be available to a writer who simply looked for literary nuances to enhance his writing.
1. Holinshed's Chronicles deal with British history. Classical allusions would be from Classical literature and mythology. Keep in mind that J. S. Bach, who never attended a university and was no aristocrat, could have read any Latin literature *in the original*. Shakespeare wasn't an Oxbridge product, but it doesn't mean he was an ignorant yokel.

2. You're contradicting your earlier contention that there is such a thing as "inherent talent" or "giftedness" when you make that "giftedness" a product of class, breeding and education. Why, genius may even appear in a nobody from some sleepy provincial town...like Stratford or Eisenach.

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:24 pm

"2. You're contradicting your earlier contention that there is such a thing as "inherent talent" or "giftedness" when you make that "giftedness" a product of class, breeding and education. Why, genius may even appear in a nobody from some sleepy provincial town...like Stratford or Eisenach." Ddray

Hi, D,
I never said giftedness was exclusively a product of "class, breeding, and education." What I have always said is that class, breeding and education do not make the cake . . .but provide the icing. Genius is a category of Man that may appear from the bowels of the lower classes to the heights of the aristocracy. However, genetics does play a role and many "geniuses" are the result of an established line of selective breeding. . . no different from the successes we see in animal husbandry as in the selective breeding of racehorses or champion hunting dogs. Humans are not separate and distinct from the animal world but rather another part of it and the evolution of all things in the universe. Playing again . . . Rognvald
P.S. I stand corrected on Holinshed as you are quite right. Sometimes a slip of the tongue is good for one's character.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

jscott
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by jscott » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:03 am

"the bowels of the lower classes...'

Rognvald, maybe doctors will find Tiny Tim when they perform their next colonoscopy.
Last edited by jscott on Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tonit
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Tonit » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:12 am

Rognvald wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:24 pm
However, genetics does play a role and many "geniuses" are the result of an established line of selective breeding. . . no different from the successes we see in animal husbandry as in the selective breeding of racehorses or champion hunting dogs. Humans are not separate and distinct from the animal world but rather another part of it and the evolution of all things in the universe.
The selective breeding sucesses in different animals you are discussing are true, and I agree with the humans being part of animal world.

However, as I have noted, music is not any horseracing or hunting dog championship, and there is no clear and constant criteria to define the "geniuses" or innate excellence in music or literature, as the criteria trend is by definition shifting, so that the Seashore's "sense of consonance" for example has been shifting and varied as we all hopefully know.

It is more like when "3rds and 6ths" is the criteria, and if you happened to have the best sense of "3rds and 6ths", then you may be considered as a genius more than those who writes a series of parallel 5ths with power chords. Unless you have the best sense of foreseeing the music of tomorrow and have different kinds of honed (and not given) proficiencies to nail it at the right time, it depends mostly on chances that may make you a potential/actual genius.

We may be able to analyze genetically or otherwise about how a phenomenal musician/writer could be so "innately genius", but any such consideration is merely an ex postfacto consideration that should be of no use in identifying any "genius" of tomorrow.

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:44 pm

"We may be able to analyze genetically or otherwise about how a phenomenal musician/writer could be so "innately genius", but any such consideration is merely an ex postfacto consideration that should be of no use in identifying any "genius" of tomorrow." Tonit

Hi, T,
I agree completely while it is still in the womb or test tube. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:24 pm
However, genetics does play a role and many "geniuses" are the result of an established line of selective breeding. . . no different from the successes we see in animal husbandry as in the selective breeding of racehorses or champion hunting dogs.
I'd quite like to know which geniuses were the result of a deliberate program of selective breeding...

Tonit
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Tonit » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:58 am

Hi Rognvald,
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:44 pm
"We may be able to analyze genetically or otherwise about how a phenomenal musician/writer could be so "innately genius", but any such consideration is merely an ex postfacto consideration that should be of no use in identifying any "genius" of tomorrow." Tonit

Hi, T,
I agree completely while it is still in the womb or test tube. Playing again . . . Rognvald
I hope by all means you are not implying that the goal of the genetic study is to produce genetically gifted musicians.

That would be a dreadful idea and totally off the mark or self-inflicting damage to our humanity.

Historically, someone you know all too well went too far with that kind of idea to slaughter too many.

Cheers,

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:12 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:04 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:24 pm
However, genetics does play a role and many "geniuses" are the result of an established line of selective breeding. . . no different from the successes we see in animal husbandry as in the selective breeding of racehorses or champion hunting dogs.
I'd quite like to know which geniuses were the result of a deliberate program of selective breeding...


Hi, Denian,
How about Schubert, Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Strauss in Music . . . Brontes, Shelley, and Maugham in Literature and Picasso, Klimmt, Duchamp, and Pollock in Art to name a few off the top of my head. I'm sure if you research it, you'll find more . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
P.S. And what about all the great Sports and Popular Music Families?
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:28 pm

How did that work then? Did Jackson Pollock’s parents reject unsuitable partners because they were looking for the one who’d produce a world-famous artist? Is it a science?

Rognvald
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Re: Q&A: Musicality and Giftedness

Post by Rognvald » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:06 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:28 pm
How did that work then? Did Jackson Pollock’s parents reject unsuitable partners because they were looking for the one who’d produce a world-famous artist? Is it a science?

No, Denian,
You're trying to make Science sinister. It's not. History is resplendent with examples of genes for giftedness passing down through generations as I described above. I am certain that if you married a woman with musical giftedness, there would be a high coincidence of giftedness in your children and if not, in successive generations. We share the majority of our unique DNA from our maternal lineage but that does not rule out Daddy's genes. Genetics is, on one hand, simple and yet complex but the rule of averages applies more often than not.
Secondly, in the past, pre-arranged marriages were the norm. The concept behind the practice was that your parents could pick a more appropriate mate for you when you were younger than you were able with raging testosterone and the singlemindedness of physical sex. I remember as a young man I would rage against this practice but today, I think differently. The difference between Romantic Love and Mature Love is great and many of us have realized that love can grow between people based on mutual respect, admiration, ethics as well as physical attractiveness. I hesitate to mention Romeo and Juliet since I know Ddray is lurking somewhere in the shadows and I will once again be punished for my Holinshed reference. . . . paybacks are a bitch! Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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