Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

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Gary Macleod

Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Gary Macleod » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:41 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Steve Langham wrote:Can I ask... I'm honestly interested to know. Why do you/others spend their precious practice time learning to play scales so fast? What's the point? I'm quite likely to be wrong but it doesn't seem to me that there's that much repertoire out there that requires such speeds?
I seem to think it's a bit like golf and wanting to hit your driver further than anyone else, bit of a manly ego thing?
There are wider benefits to be had I assume?
In order to be able to play, to name one example, much of the music of Joaquin Rodrigo. That's quite an important part of the repertoire.
See if this helps with scales, I do it with villa lobos 7 too

https://youtu.be/NTB0PBlzxB0

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markodarko
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by markodarko » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:43 am

Adrian Allan wrote:Well I know at least one famous guitar player who has recorded the Aranjuez using pmi and also in performances.
Ah yes, I can imagine that working better than an AMI run as the thumb is a heavy beast, and of course, there's nothing "wrong" with using AMI for that piece per se, or even just plain free stroke, I just think there are other strokes which are more fitting - musically - due to the passionate nature of the music.

But hey, these are just my opinions. Others may completely disagree and feel that the type of stroke doesn't matter, and that's all cool with me. It's playing the music that counts at the end of the day, else it's just a bunch of black dots on a page. :)

How are you getting on with Matt's book?
Negative, I am a meat popsicle.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:55 am

I am, getting on quite well, but there is only so much that the brain and fingers can absorb each day. Will do a video when I am ready.

I am preparing for a diploma exam where I need to play Bach's Chaconne, and I might incorporate the approach into the fast bit on page 3-4 before the arpeggios. All options open.

After 10 years of not touching the guitar, I am now seeing how good I can get with brand new approaches.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:05 am

Gary Macleod wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:
Steve Langham wrote:Can I ask... I'm honestly interested to know. Why do you/others spend their precious practice time learning to play scales so fast? What's the point? I'm quite likely to be wrong but it doesn't seem to me that there's that much repertoire out there that requires such speeds?
I seem to think it's a bit like golf and wanting to hit your driver further than anyone else, bit of a manly ego thing?
There are wider benefits to be had I assume?
In order to be able to play, to name one example, much of the music of Joaquin Rodrigo. That's quite an important part of the repertoire.
See if this helps with scales, I do it with villa lobos 7 too

https://youtu.be/NTB0PBlzxB0
Thanks for the share, Gary will try your approach as well and tell you how I get on.
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Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:57 pm

Adrian, how do you rate Matt Palmer's approach to scales after 2 years.

guit-box
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by guit-box » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:23 pm

It's a very good book, I recommend it, but if you can figure out how to write out diatonic major and minor strings so they are 3-notes-per-string yourself, then you really don't need it imo. You could also just watch his tutorials or others on the subject at Strings By Mail or youtube or Tonebase. I think most of the young virtuosos are using a,m,i scales. The one thing that Palmer might have missed is that a,m,i and i,a,m and m,i, a are basically the same movement but sometimes one works better than the others. Watch the latest Tonebase video on a,m,i scales where 2017 GFA winner Ty teaches how he uses i, a, m for a descending 3-note-per-string scale because it makes the string change less awkward. A small change but a huge difference in how it feels.
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by msa3psu » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:00 pm

I've known some who use iam descending and ami ascending and who don't finger all strings with three notes. They allow for two or four notes on some strings played with im or mi. This allows more normal left hand scale fingering and they achieve amazing speed and power despite the mixed patterns. I've used this approach and it feels good but I haven't spent much time working up the speed yet.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Terpfan wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:57 pm
Adrian, how do you rate Matt Palmer's approach to scales after 2 years.
I used it for a while and then drifted away from it and tried my own approaches, with a limited amount of success.

Sadly, due to the pressures of work and studying for a non-music part time masters right now, my playing has taken a back seat for a while.
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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Alexander Kalil » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:09 am

I think it should be pointed out that iam working better than ami for descending scales is just a feature of the specific right hand approach of the players in question. It is not a universal case. For other players, such as myself and obviously Matt Palmer, ami is just fine, descending and ascending. In general I would say that fluency in string-crossing with all three patterns, ami-iam-mia, is the mark of an accomplished 3-finger (ami) scale technique. It allows one to pluck any left-hand scale configuration with the technique, not limiting oneself to configurations with 3, 6, or 9 notes per string.

Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:20 pm

I'm not too familiar with newer players now, but I had a chance to see Matt Palmer on YouTube and his scales are much better than others I've been familiar like Yepes. I personally can play im scales at fast speed but it would be nice to have three finger scales in my arsenal. The future players will use both im and ami for different uses.

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guitarrista
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:24 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:09 am
In general I would say that fluency in string-crossing with all three patterns, ami-iam-mia, is the mark of an accomplished 3-finger (ami) scale technique.
I agree, which is why I actually drifted away from Palmer's book - if I remember correctly as I have not revisited it in a while, his is specifically an 'ami' approach with many exceptions as he tries to cover various two-string crossing and note number configurations, avoiding 'awkward' string crossings and always trying to come back to 'ami' per string (meaning if there are 3 notes per string, to play them as an 'ami' sequence for the right hand).
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Adrian Allan » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:45 pm

What I would say is - whatever works for you.

It is clear from Matt Palmer's videos that his 3 notes per string ami works brilliantly for him.

I know that both David Starobin and Goran Sollscher use a p i or p m approach to fast scales. Sollscher uses the p i approach in the Aranjuez, which might seem strange to those who argue that you must use a quite strong, punchy rest stroke for those fast scale passages.

My old teacher ( a big UK name) uses pmi for many Aranjuez scales, as he says it helps with speed to throw in the p.

So, what I and others need to do is slow things down to a crazily low speed and find what finger movements work for us, as individuals. And then slowly but surely build things up.

For example, I know that using p and i for scales right now seems a ridiculous prospect, but it does work for some people - so we all need to find our own path and be very patient in the process.

(as I believe that a fast clean scale is the true test of guitar technique - let's face it, even masters like Bream and Yepes found fast scales hit and miss on a bad day).
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Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:13 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:45 pm
(as I believe that a fast clean scale is the true test of guitar technique - let's face it, even masters like Bream and Yepes found fast scales hit and miss on a bad day).
It seems the key to fast clean scales is breaking down longer scales to smaller pieces and sequencing it together.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am

Terpfan wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:13 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:45 pm
(as I believe that a fast clean scale is the true test of guitar technique - let's face it, even masters like Bream and Yepes found fast scales hit and miss on a bad day).
It seems the key to fast clean scales is breaking down longer scales to smaller pieces and sequencing it together.
Yes - if there is a problem with any technique, it must be broken down to its smallest unit, even if that means one or two notes.
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Crofty » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:19 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am
Yes - if there is a problem with any technique, it must be broken down to its smallest unit, even if that means one or two notes.
My own one note playing is brilliant.

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