How do i count these measures?

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CarbonElitist
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How do i count these measures?

Post by CarbonElitist » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:06 pm

How do I count these measures? The time signature is 4/4 and as far as I can tell, it does not change. I'm afraid I quit formal lessons a bit early. I never got to tackle complex voices and grouped notes like this.

Edit: I guess I need glasses. I now just noticed there was a change in time signatures. The picture, as some of you have hypothesized, is in 6/8. Thanks for your help!
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Last edited by CarbonElitist on Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: New question, how do i count these measures?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:49 am

CarbonElitist wrote:And I have another question.
Well - deleting your original question has made all the following answers quite mysterious to anyone reading the thread. Up to you of course but the board is more helpful to others if the queries and replies are kept intact.
CarbonElitist wrote:How do I count these measures? The time signature is 4/4 and as far as I can tell, it does not change.
The time signature has in fact changed - youmust have missed it somewhere earlier.

You're now in 6/8 i.e. two pulses to each measure which are subdivided into three eighth notes (quavers) each. These may be simply counted as:

1 & a, 2 & a or, using a more sophisticated system, ta te ti, ta te ti.

The situation is a bit complicated however as the latter two bars in your snippet are written polyrhythmically - more than one meter at the same time. The upper voice continues in 6/8 whilst the lower one (through the use of duplets) temporarily switches to 2/4.
CarbonElitist wrote:I'm afraid I quit formal lessons a bit early. I never got to tackle complex voices and grouped notes like this.
Ideally you would learn to hear the two rhythmic subdivisions simultaneously but separately. A couple of sessions with a knowledgable music teacher (of any instrument) would obviously be a good idea, but a short cut may be to follow these examples from Wiki:
polyrhythm_1.png
polyrhythm_2.png
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Last edited by Mark Clifton-Gaultier on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AAA

Re: New question, how do i count these measures?

Post by AAA » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:38 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:49 am
Well - deleting your original question has made all the following answers quite mysterious to anyone reading the thread.
Thank you for that. I thought I was losing what little mind I have left.

AA

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Re: How do I count these measures?

Post by pogmoor » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:27 am

As has been pointed out the original question raised in this thread has been removed and a new question substituted. As can be seen this is confusing to other members. Can I remind forum members that, although they can alter the wording of a post (for a limited time) after it has been submitted they should not do this unless it is entirely necessary (to clarify the point or correct errors).
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by CarbonElitist » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:04 pm

Hey everybody, thanks for the great answers. And I apologize for the confusion regarding the post edit. Here's what happened: I was going to update the post with another question about the same piece, not switch one question for the other. But through a series of mishaps (I attempted the edit on a not-so-great mobile device), I accidentally deleted the picture for the original post, and was left with the picture you have now. I tried to edit it back but instead was met with an error message. (something like "you are not authorized to access this file"). I was going to message a moderator for help, but then my break ended, so I had to get back to work. Then I simply forgot I had posted it. I do apologize for any confusion I may have caused.
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Re: New question, how do i count these measures?

Post by Smudger5150 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:04 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:49 am

...

The situation is a bit complicated however as the latter two bars in your snippet are written polyrhythmically - more than one meter at the same time. The upper voice continues in 6/8 whilst the lower one (through the use of duplets) temporarily switches to 2/4.

...
Is this an example of hemiola? (That I noticed you mention in another thread).
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Guero » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:10 pm

What piece is it? Nice chords. Nice stretch as well..

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CarbonElitist
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by CarbonElitist » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 pm

Guero wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:10 pm
What piece is it? Nice chords. Nice stretch as well..
Check out Sam Griffin on YouTube. He is a talented classical guitarist that transcribes melodies from very geeky subjects. This is his transcription of Streets of Rabanastre from Final Fantasy 12.
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Guero » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:33 pm

Interesting. Seems to be a computer game. I wonder if he'll ever make a transcription of the Ghost'n 'Goblins theme, which is more my cup of tea :D

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CarbonElitist
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by CarbonElitist » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Guero wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:33 pm
Interesting. Seems to be a computer game. I wonder if he'll ever make a transcription of the Ghost'n 'Goblins theme, which is more my cup of tea :D
I wouldn't be surprised if he does. He's done Chrono Trigger, Ocarina of Time, and several other old-school games.
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:11 pm

Smudger wrote:Is this an example of hemiola?
No. Hemiola is a temporary shifting of the pulse so that it sounds (for instance) as though a measure of 3/2 has been inserted into a sequence written in 3/4:
hemiola.png
The above is taken from Turina's Soleares.

However - the terminology is very commonly misunderstood and may even be irrevocably changed (language evolves). The commonly heard meter change between 6/8 and 3/4 as heard in latin music e.g. I want to, live in A, me , ri , ca is often described as hemiola - it is not.

Similarly, polyrhythms are sometimes incorrectly labelled as such - even in dictionaries.
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guitarrista
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by guitarrista » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:21 pm

CarbonElitist wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:06 pm
How do I count these measures? The time signature is 4/4 and as far as I can tell, it does not change. I'm afraid I quit formal lessons a bit early. I never got to tackle complex voices and grouped notes like this.
So you have something that looks like it should be 6/8 time signature. In any case, it has 6 8ths worth of duration per measure, so it is impossible to be 4/4. What is probably confusing is that it uses duplets in the lower voice. These are like triplets, but the reverse - two notes of equal length in the space of three.

So how do you tease it out? Let's split it into 16ths. The whole measure is 12 16ths long. So each note of the duplets, of which there are up to four per measure, is 3 16ths in duration. A quarter in the top voice is 4 16ths long; an 8th is 2 16ths long. So break it down into 16ths to see what the sequence is. Here it is in the TUBS system for the two complete measures that are visible:

reverse_hemiola.PNG

Also, it is like a reverse vertical hemiola. (vertical = at the same time). The flamenco 3-3-2-2-2 which can be notated as 2 3/4s + 3 2/4s measures, is an example of a horizontal hemiola (horizontal = one after the other).
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Smudger5150 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:41 pm

Guero wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:33 pm
Interesting. Seems to be a computer game. I wonder if he'll ever make a transcription of the Ghost'n 'Goblins theme, which is more my cup of tea :D
So computer games really are becoming the cutting edge of art. Leading actors being used in the cut scenes for some games which are becoming like interactive film. And now they are the source of the folk music of the day. Why ask if CG players should compose when they are some many new game themes to arrange!! :shock: 8) :casque:
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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Smudger5150 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:42 pm

I'd like to see someone try to arrange the theme to the James Pond or Sonic the hedgehog games!
"Music washes away the dust of every day life." Art Blakey

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Re: How do i count these measures?

Post by Smudger5150 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:50 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:11 pm
Smudger wrote:Is this an example of hemiola?
No. Hemiola is a temporary shifting of the pulse so that it sounds (for instance) as though a measure of 3/2 has been inserted into a sequence written in 3/4:
hemiola.png
The above is taken from Turina's Soleares.

However - the terminology is very commonly misunderstood and may even be irrevocably changed (language evolves). The commonly heard meter change between 6/8 and 3/4 as heard in latin music e.g. I want to, live in A, me , ri , ca is often described as hemiola - it is not.

Similarly, polyrhythms are sometimes incorrectly labelled as such - even in dictionaries.
Thanks for that. Only today, I've glanced at the wikipedia definition and it mentioned the Vertical hemiola: sesquialtera which 'seemed' to strike a resemblance to Carbon's example which is why I asked the question. But maybe I didn't read the wiki article correctly or it's an example, as you say, of an incorrect definition of hemiola. I'll get back to it....
"Music washes away the dust of every day life." Art Blakey

"If I don’t practice for a day, I know it. If I don’t practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don’t practice for three days, the public knows it." Louis Armstrong

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