RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

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Christopher Langley
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RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Christopher Langley » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:12 am

How come the whole first phrase of a piece is always fingered, but then.. as the piece goes on there are less and less suggested fingerings?

Am I supposed to fill the rest in myself, or what?

Trying to play off the D01 PDF (I don't own a music stand to prop up the music for me) and the way the RH fingerings cut in and out in the PDF is really like, not useful. It leaves me to just make educated guesses and to try to pull fingerings off the videos. Certainly less than ideal. Even if I go and fill in the fingerings for myself.. I'm really just guessing and doing my best to keep things alternating. I don't like this element of unknowing. Some of the fingering choices are not making sense to me.. and then I am noticing Mr. Delcamp doesn't always follow the fingerings in his videos either.. I'm catching him using the same finger twice in a row and not always alternating.. Which was pointed out to me as a bad habit of mine.. Well.. You can see why I'm having second guesses now.

I wish I could afford a teacher. This is really a tough genre to be self-teaching. I was lead to believe RH fingering was very very important, and to always be played with alternating fingers so I started over in the materials.. and now I'm reaching a point where I'm noticing even Mr. Delcamp is not following fingerings all the time? And if the fingerings are so important, why do they cut in and out like this? What gives? Is it important, or not? :lol:

Sigh.

:merci:

Too many things to think about sometimes.. I might go back to using my fingers willy-nilly, I think I was playing better before I started up this always alternating business.
Last edited by Christopher Langley on Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Ganz
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Steve Ganz » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:21 am

My 2 cents:
Lots of scores I have give specifics for the first occurrence of a phrase, or if a specific fingering is desirable. It's not just Delcamp scores.

If fingerings are not self-evident (changes with experience) then I mark up the score myself.

This is a tough genre.
Steve

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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:08 am

I get the frustration. I bought the Tecla edition of Sor studies on recommendation; some fingerings would have been helpful to me since I am also self-teaching.

I think the fingerings in the first measures are meant to be a template for how to proceed. Yes, we do need to work out the fingerings. Yes, it means going slower. I’m seeing seeing some benefit in working slowly and in a more disciplined manner. One step back, two forward?

Maybe have a few pieces you play for your own enjoyment. Don’t agonize over those - just play and enjoy. Then continue to do the harder work as well. Just a thought. Best luck!
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:34 am

Play whatever fingering you like. Using the same fingers in patterns is not a crime. The importance of fingering has more to do with how the position allows for future note separation...if you are using a lazy pattern and the composition does not require more labored finger movements that is fine.

But there are times when you need to use specific fingerings to get from point a to point b...drive that beat etc...or simply get ready for the next chord shape and sounds.

Forget about dogma...Take it logically...If you are using repeated fingerings that could very well be part of the driving beat. However if the fingerings are lazily applied when you are attempted to work into the counter point and melody then you can screw yourself buy sounding like a clunky typerwriter or compressed mp3 from the 1990's with no frequency depth...

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:35 am

SleepyheadRooster wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:08 am
I get the frustration. I bought the Tecla edition of Sor studies on recommendation; some fingerings would have been helpful to me since I am also self-teaching.
<snip>
It is not like Sor, who was a thorough educator, to leave you guessing about right-hand fingering. In the Tecla edition, right-hand fingering is noted throughout. Notes with stem down are played with the thumb, regardless of which string they are on. Notes with stem up are played with i and m alternating. a (anular) is used only in four-note chords. Read the Sor Method (available on-line) for further details.
Yisrael van Handel
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:11 am

Christopher Langley wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:12 am
How come the whole first phrase of a piece is always fingered, but then.. as the piece goes on there are less and less suggested fingerings?
Am I supposed to fill the rest in myself, or what?
<snip>
I find the Stanley Yates system very effective (this is a modern method, not Sor's; learn the modern method first):
  1. a-m-i on 1-2-3 string for chords and arpeggios
  2. p-m-i on 1-2-3 string for melody, passage work, and scales
There is more detail. If you are learning by yourself (every guitarist learns by themselves 90% of the time), Stanley Yates' Classical Guitar Technique from Foundation to Virtuosity is essential. It is not cheap (about the price of one lesson), but contains a lifetime of guidance for when your teacher is not sitting next to you.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

William Byrd
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by William Byrd » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:22 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:11 am
Christopher Langley wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:12 am
How come the whole first phrase of a piece is always fingered, but then.. as the piece goes on there are less and less suggested fingerings?
Am I supposed to fill the rest in myself, or what?
<snip>
I find the Stanley Yates system very effective (this is a modern method, not Sor's; learn the modern method first):
  1. a-m-i on 1-2-3 string for chords and arpeggios
  2. p-m-i on 1-2-3 string for melody, passage work, and scales
There is more detail. If you are learning by yourself (every guitarist learns by themselves 90% of the time), Stanley Yates' Classical Guitar Technique from Foundation to Virtuosity is essential. It is not cheap (about the price of one lesson), but contains a lifetime of guidance for when your teacher is not sitting next to you.
Thank you for this recommendation. I have made the purchase and look forward to its arrival.
1966 Kazuo Yairi Uzuki
1967 Sadao Yairi Seijin
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:55 pm

William Byrd wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thank you for this recommendation. I have made the purchase and look forward to its arrival.
You are welcome. I am thrilled that I am able to help someone advance in classical guitar. Warning: the first half of the first book is a lot of reading. But it goes through every aspect of essential technique.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

William Byrd
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by William Byrd » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:43 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:55 pm
William Byrd wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:22 am
Thank you for this recommendation. I have made the purchase and look forward to its arrival.
You are welcome. I am thrilled that I am able to help someone advance in classical guitar. Warning: the first half of the first book is a lot of reading. But it goes through every aspect of essential technique.
I will not rush through it. If you can offer any advice as to how to proceed, I would be most grateful.
1966 Kazuo Yairi Uzuki
1967 Sadao Yairi Seijin
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:00 pm

William Byrd wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:43 am
<snip> If you can offer any advice as to how to proceed,<snip>
Start on the first page. Go slowly. When you get to right-hand technique, also start left-hand technique. And do a chapter at a time of left-hand technique and of right-hand technique. It is also very useful to skim the whole book, so that you know where things are. For instance, the strategy for right-hand fingering (which you need the minute you start right-hand technique) is at the end of the second book in an appendix. Also, follow his technique for filing nails. If it doesn't sound good, the problem is probably your technique and not your nails. Do not try to use ramped nails until you are quite advanced. I hope this helps.
PS. Keep playing music. That will provide the context for understanding how the techniques are going to help you. It will also provide the motivation to keep going.
Yisrael van Handel
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celestemcc
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by celestemcc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:31 pm

I'd add one thing though... do practice scales using a (alternating with m or i). Doesn't hurt to have a good a finger. You'll rarely ever actually use a for scale passages in music... but it does help to train the finger.
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William Byrd
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by William Byrd » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:23 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:00 pm
William Byrd wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:43 am
<snip> If you can offer any advice as to how to proceed,<snip>
Start on the first page. Go slowly. When you get to right-hand technique, also start left-hand technique. And do a chapter at a time of left-hand technique and of right-hand technique. It is also very useful to skim the whole book, so that you know where things are. For instance, the strategy for right-hand fingering (which you need the minute you start right-hand technique) is at the end of the second book in an appendix. Also, follow his technique for filing nails. If it doesn't sound good, the problem is probably your technique and not your nails. Do not try to use ramped nails until you are quite advanced. I hope this helps.
PS. Keep playing music. That will provide the context for understanding how the techniques are going to help you. It will also provide the motivation to keep going.
Thank you for the advice. I will refer back to this once I have books in hand. I wasn't aware of the ramped nail issue. I have been filing them at a ramp per pretty much everything I've read or watched on YouTube. Often times I feel the nails are more of a hinderance than an asset. I hope I can ask questions of you as they arise in my journey. It would be very much appreciated.

Bill
1966 Kazuo Yairi Uzuki
1967 Sadao Yairi Seijin
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600

William Byrd
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by William Byrd » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:29 pm

celestemcc wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:31 pm
I'd add one thing though... do practice scales using a (alternating with m or i). Doesn't hurt to have a good a finger. You'll rarely ever actually use a for scale passages in music... but it does help to train the finger.
I am currently using Aaron Shearer's Scale Pattern Studies for Guitar. I try and practice at least two different scales per day. It does help with my sight reading and the IM finger alternation. My current struggle, not related to scales, is crossing over with the I and M fingers as is suggested in D01 lesson 3, Dionisio Aguado Leccion 5a. I can read the music fine. It's getting my fingers to cooperate that is frustrating me. I can't seem to get past 40 bpm. Suggestions?
1966 Kazuo Yairi Uzuki
1967 Sadao Yairi Seijin
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600

Todd Tipton
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Todd Tipton » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:26 pm

I'll give you a piece of general advice: usually, it is more important to choose *a* fingering rather than *the* fingering. Not *exactly* related, but I heard Stephen Robinson once say one of the simplest things that really stuck with me: if you aren't using a pencil, then you aren't really practicing; practicing is about making decisions.

So, when you need a fingering, make a decision. Write it in and stick with it. Often, we end up changing our minds. That is where the eraser comes in handy! :-)
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Christopher Langley
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Re: RH Fingerings.. What is the deal?

Post by Christopher Langley » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:45 pm

Todd Tipton wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:26 pm
I'll give you a piece of general advice: usually, it is more important to choose *a* fingering rather than *the* fingering. Not *exactly* related, but I heard Stephen Robinson once say one of the simplest things that really stuck with me: if you aren't using a pencil, then you aren't really practicing; practicing is about making decisions.

So, when you need a fingering, make a decision. Write it in and stick with it. Often, we end up changing our minds. That is where the eraser comes in handy! :-)
Interesting Todd, this response seems to resonate with me the most.

It's not gonna make or break me.. I would just like to be playing "right". I wish I was for sure which fingers to use.

The more I think.. I can use my own ears and just trust myself. If it works, it works. Certain pieces will require certain fingerings.

I just wish I knew what the ideal rh fingering was. Probabaly depends more on the player and the piece than I am realizing.
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