Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:48 pm

Christopher Freitag wrote:Yes, but he has since changed it to an F natural after seeing the MS copies that I showed him. The Stover edition has it wrong.
Not "wrong" exactly - both Stover (1977 and 2003) and Benites (1979) editions follow the 1942 MS which does give F natural. This F natural appears to be quite deliberate - with a finger 1 indication crossed out in favour of 2, facilitating the glissando to G sharp. Several other editions have appeared which are of little interest as they seem to be derived directly from Benites and/or Stover.

The 1938 MS offers F sharp - using finger 3 for both it and the following G sharp.

I must say - to my layman's eye the calligraphy of the 1938 MS displays more similarity to other Barrios scripts whilst the 1942 looks immediately 'other". I don't know why Stover is so sure that the later one is authentic.

Do you have a copy of the "Paraguayan MS" Christopher and, if so, does it shed light or offer any other elements of interest?

soltirefa
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by soltirefa » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:22 pm

at a slightly slower tempo and with a ritardando
I believe "ritardando" is politically incorrect now. It should be "tempo challenged." :D

riffmeister
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by riffmeister » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:32 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:48 pm
Christopher Freitag wrote:Yes, but he has since changed it to an F natural after seeing the MS copies that I showed him. The Stover edition has it wrong.
Not "wrong" exactly - both Stover (1977 and 2003) and Benites (1979) editions follow the 1942 MS which does give F natural. This F natural appears to be quite deliberate - with a finger 1 indication crossed out in favour of 2, facilitating the glissando to G sharp. Several other editions have appeared which are of little interest as they seem to be derived directly from Benites and/or Stover.

The 1938 MS offers F sharp - using finger 3 for both it and the following G sharp.

I must say - to my layman's eye the calligraphy of the 1938 MS displays more similarity to other Barrios scripts whilst the 1942 looks immediately 'other". I don't know why Stover is so sure that the later one is authentic.

Do you have a copy of the "Paraguayan MS" Christopher and, if so, does it shed light or offer any other elements of interest?
You are referring the the F natural in measure 46 (F natural on the 4th string). I was talking about the F natural that Jason plays in measure 47 (F natural on the 2nd string).......it is written as an F# in the Stover edition.

riffmeister
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by riffmeister » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:22 pm
at a slightly slower tempo and with a ritardando
I believe "ritardando" is politically incorrect now. It should be "tempo challenged." :D
D'Oh! :D

Let's call it a rallentando.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:55 am

riffmeister wrote:You are referring the the F natural in measure 46 (F natural on the 4th string). I was talking about the F natural that Jason plays in measure 47 (F natural on the 2nd string).......it is written as an F# in the Stover edition.
Ha!

Some confusion Riffmeister - my fault for not listening to the recording before replying. I was actually referring to the glissando on string six (also m.47) which should begin on F natural. To clarify, and in addition to what I wrote about that low F:

1938 MS - F on string two notated as natural.
1942 MS - F on string two notated as natural.
1977, Stover - (m.47) F on string two - natural omitted.
1982, Benites - (m.47) - F on string two notated as natural.
2003, Stover (m.47) - F on string two notated as natural.

It's obvious that the F should be natural and Christopher's comment makes perfect sense. The 1977 edition is indeed wrong.

riffmeister
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by riffmeister » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:46 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:55 am
riffmeister wrote:You are referring the the F natural in measure 46 (F natural on the 4th string). I was talking about the F natural that Jason plays in measure 47 (F natural on the 2nd string).......it is written as an F# in the Stover edition.
Ha!

Some confusion Riffmeister - my fault for not listening to the recording before replying. I was actually referring to the glissando on string six (also m.47) which should begin on F natural. To clarify, and in addition to what I wrote about that low F:

1938 MS - F on string two notated as natural.
1942 MS - F on string two notated as natural.
1977, Stover - (m.47) F on string two - natural omitted.
1982, Benites - (m.47) - F on string two notated as natural.
2003, Stover (m.47) - F on string two notated as natural.

It's obvious that the F should be natural and Christopher's comment makes perfect sense. The 1977 edition is indeed wrong.
Awesome......thanks for that! Been playing the 1977 Stover edition for about a dozen years so my ear has been "trained" to the F# and the F natural sounds odd to me. This old dog needs to learn some new tricks! :D

Todd Tipton
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by Todd Tipton » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:02 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:48 am
There was a movement in the 1980s to remove all the slides - or most of them - from the Romantic repertoire, from those who saught a more piano-like sound. This coincided with guitars becoming louder. It moved further and further away from the intimate sound of Tárrega to Barrios, who would have used silk-core bass strings, which had fewer upper partials than modern bass strings, i.e. much less squeak.

So, if you use slides on modern strings, you have to do your best to avoid squeaks by sliding not with the tip of your fingers, but the softer part between the tip and the first joint. That's not always easy or possible, however. It can be problematical, which is why some players leave them out.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I do not believe in progress when it comes to musical instruments, string technology, and interpretation. Things are not better or worse now, just different. But problems do arise when trying to play 100-year old music on a new guitar.
Exactly this!
Dr. Todd Tipton, Noda Guitar Studio
Charlotte, NC, USA (available via Skype)

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Tony Hyman
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Re: Julia Florida--slide to 'a' in third measure

Post by Tony Hyman » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:15 pm

I play the slides according to my mood of the day.

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