Practicing Tremolo

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guit-box
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by guit-box » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:25 pm

I prefer Park to Williams both musically and technically. Slow down both tremolos to .50% using the youtube settings wheel and Williams tremolo is not as even in terms of tone, volume and rhythm.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

SteveL123
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:57 pm

robert e wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:58 pm
(......................)
I did misunderstand you, Steve. I was so focused on dynamics that the change of one note slipped by me. If you're talking about Measure 13, I've now seen two editions with the latter, while Stover's apparently has the former. I don't have access to Stover's book--maybe it has an editorial note. I wouldn't be surprised if Barrios wrote it one way and played it another way, or several other ways.

The same question was asked in an older thread and unanswered, but a propos our OP, there's much there on practicing tremolo so here's that link: https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... hp?t=41185
Hi Robert, interesting how we perceive music in different ways. I guess I am very sensitive to pitch. On pieces I know well, I can usually hear any deviation in pitch from what I am used to instantly.

Yes I was talking about measure 13. I have found these 2 different scores, put them side by side on my iMac display and took a pic of it. M13 (M21 score on left) are "underlined" with blue masking tape for easy i.d. Score on the left was found on a Tonebase lesson with Gohar Vandanyan and is the version played by Williams and Barrios himself and many others. I don't know where Gohar's arrangement is from (does not say on the score). Score on the right revised by Jesus Benites, as played by Park.

Good thing for me with this exercise is that I learned to play M's 17 - 28 (Gohar's score). There are some beautiful chords and harmony in there! What I love about Barrios is that he can take a dead simple yet beautiful melody, weave and build around it to make it a great piece of music that is enjoyable to play and listen.
20190320_153659-816x612.jpg
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:10 pm

Julian Ward wrote:Barrios wrote almost nothing down.
Why on earth do you say that Julian?

We have around 80 works in manuscript form - several in two (or even three) versions. Further, the early memorial edition put together by his friend Romeo di Giorgio included 21 items which were most likely derived from written copies. Then there are the individually published items.

Given that Barrios' complete oeuvre numbers only around a 100 pieces I'd say that he wrote down rather alot.

Un Sueño en la Floresta
Barrios composed this work as early as 1918 naming it Souvenir d'un Réve which remained the title until c.1930. He recorded it in 1928. Assuming that I have the correct passage, Giorgio gives the C:
uself_gio.png
There is some consensus, both Chris Dumigan's and Stover's revised transcriptions of the 1928 recording give:
uself_dum.png
uself_stor.png
Of the several versions that I have only Benites offers:
uself_ben.png
This looks to me like a simple copying error (I am assuming that Benites referenced the Giorgio edition - note the enharmonic spelling and final chord).

During the late 1970s a renewed interest in Barrios became apparent, shortly after which the collections of Benites and Stover served to satisfy the hunger for scores - probably in about equal number which would explain why quite a few players ended up playing the third A.

Some of the rhythmic differences we hear in the introduction (e.g. m.4) are also derived from the Giorgio collection (hence Benites) - nothing to do with artistic interpretation, simply reading a different score.

There are also around 30-40 other measures with small differences which occur in both the Giorgio and the El Salvador ms. I don't have the time to check these against the Benites but suspect that there will be a match if anyone care to follow up.
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Last edited by Mark Clifton-Gaultier on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Julian Ward
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:02 am

Hi Mark I was under the impression that most of these manuscripts were indeed derived from transcriptions from his recordings. (As you say above for example with La Catedral and Stover etc..)

Of these 80 manuscripts - are we certain they were written by Barrios? If we have these manuscripts why are we talking about transcriptions of recordings? I would be genuinely interested to see which of his pieces he actually wrote down himself as I have always been under the impression (admittedly from listening to others) that there is precious little.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:35 am

Julian Ward wrote:Hi Mark I was under the impression that most of these manuscripts were indeed derived from transcriptions from his recordings. (As you say above for example with La Catedral and Stover etc..)
La Catedral Julian? That wasn't me - haven't read the whole thread and no time to do so right now so don't know who posted what.

Nevertheless it's a good example as there are two mss. in Barrios' hand:

a) 1921 in the Borda collection
b) 1938 the Havana ms. (the added Prelude).

Then there are two more from Costa Rica and El Salvador - sorry, can't remember the dates. These two are in unknown hand(s), or were at least judged to be so when I last researched this stuff, which in itself of course does not preclude a connection with the composer. Many authors used copyists, from Bach through Mozart to Villa-Lobos - but I do take your point. Rico (Stover), by the way, was of the opinion that both were in fact also in the composers hand.

The work is also included in di Giorgio's anthology, though excluding the Prelude suggesting an early source (despite the late publication date), and in a collection made by Isaias Savio which (I believe) is based specifically on the Borda ms.
Julian Ward wrote:If we have these manuscripts why are we talking about transcriptions of recordings?
Because, as is very well known, Barrios sometimes made changes to his pieces - perhaps a different musical idea, or simply judicious editing in order to fit the old "78" recording format ... maybe even the odd mistake. Most of the versions of La Catedral that I know of have small differences

Obviously, some audio transcriptions we do make because the recordings are the only versions available - the rest for a number of solid reasons: recording deviations from printed and written scores, documenting historical performance practises and so on - maybe even partly to satisfy the modern obsession for "completeness".
Julian Ward wrote: I would be genuinely interested to see which of his pieces he actually wrote down himself as I have always been under the impression (admittedly from listening to others) that there is precious little.
Well, I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the sources Julian but it's an easy enough subject to research these days if you have the time and inclination - I'm very probably out of date myself but I'm pretty certain that you'll want to revise your "wrote almost nothing down".
Last edited by Mark Clifton-Gaultier on Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Julian Ward
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:00 pm

Yes - thank you very much for that Mark - appreciated.
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Daniele Magli
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Daniele Magli » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:36 pm

Hi,

about guitar tremolo :

I composed many short tremolo pieces for my students
because everyone has his personal way and personal problems
with tremolo , and I am looking for a suitable solution.


In my opinion search before all for evenness

then speed and then volume .


I composed a piece that has all the possible problems
of the techniques that you can find in the TREMOLO :


Sea of Tranquility



you can find PDF scores in this Forum :
https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... p?t=107518


I talk about it also at my Blog
https://danielemagli.blogspot.com/2011/ ... nique.html


and as always a good exercise could be :

play Thumb and stop with Ring finger ( a )

play Ring Finger and stop with Medium ( m )

play Medium and stop with Index ( i )

and to start again play index and stop with Thumb ( p )



this is the best exercise in my opinion if you do it in the same string
for example the second string...

as Andres Segovia says " Tremolo is an arpeggios on one string "

robert e
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by robert e » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:08 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:57 pm

Hi Robert, interesting how we perceive music in different ways. I guess I am very sensitive to pitch. On pieces I know well, I can usually hear any deviation in pitch from what I am used to instantly.
Interesting indeed. I may have a relatively high tolerance for variation coming from a blues-rock-jazz background. Likewise for the idea of multiple arrangements floating around, especially knowing that Barrios was in the habit of improvising on and revising his compositions. In fact I happen to be weighing a few versions of La Catedral at the moment (Mr. Benites' being one of them).

Familiarity is certainly a factor, too. If I'd heard the contrary scalar motion of this measure dozens of times, I may well have been taken aback when I heard an A rather than the expected C. As it is, I'd only heard this piece a handful of times.

Curiously, when I go back to the recorded version I'm more familiar with--Antigoni Goni's GFA Laureate CD from Naxos--the note in question is all but inaudible! (I assume it is the C played relatively softly, as I don't sense a 6th harmony at all, but to my ear she might as well have omitted the upper C. In fact, the relative dryness of the C octave may be why I prefer hearing the A, even though the C appeals to me more on an intellectual level. (Today, at least!)) I know I can't link it here, but FYI Amazon's sample of that track includes the measure in question.

@Mark

Thank you for once again sharing your knowledge and research!

Chris Delisa
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Chris Delisa » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:35 am

Julian Ward wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:02 am
Hi Mark I was under the impression that most of these manuscripts were indeed derived from transcriptions from his recordings. (As you say above for example with La Catedral and Stover etc..)

Of these 80 manuscripts - are we certain they were written by Barrios? If we have these manuscripts why are we talking about transcriptions of recordings? I would be genuinely interested to see which of his pieces he actually wrote down himself as I have always been under the impression (admittedly from listening to others) that there is precious little.
You've got a point. Barrios didn't like writing manuscripts. Perhaps even he didn't even write most of his music (which is a lot if we believe he wrote upwards of 300 pieces). But there are many surviving manuscripts of his which demonstrate incredibly clean handwriting. Such as Julia Florida! In reading Six Silver Moonbeams by Rico Stover, it appears that Barrios was reluctant to transcribe his music but his patron and friend Martín Borda y Pagola encouraged him to do so.

Of the Stover editions, some pieces were transcribed from recordings and others were from manuscripts.

chinese
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by chinese » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:23 am

You can watch the master class video uploaded by Pepe Romero. It can help you to improve the tremolo.
Just practice following the instructions of Pumping Nylon.
If you have a guitar teacher, it would be easier.

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Tony Hyman
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Tony Hyman » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:10 pm
Julian Ward wrote:Barrios wrote almost nothing down.
Why on earth do you say that Julian?

We have around 80 works in manuscript form - several in two (or even three) versions. Further, the early memorial edition put together by his friend Romeo di Giorgio included 21 items which were most likely derived from written copies. Then there are the individually published items.

Given that Barrios' complete oeuvre numbers only around a 100 pieces I'd say that he wrote down rather alot.

Un Sueño en la Floresta
Barrios composed this work as early as 1918 naming it Souvenir d'un Réve which remained the title until c.1930. He recorded it in 1928. Assuming that I have the correct passage, Giorgio gives the C:
uself_gio.png
There is some consensus, both Chris Dumigan's and Stover's revised transcriptions of the 1928 recording give:
uself_dum.pnguself_stor.png

Of the several versions that I have only Benites offers:
uself_ben.png
This looks to me like a simple copying error (I am assuming that Benites referenced the Giorgio edition - note the enharmonic spelling and final chord).

During the late 1970s a renewed interest in Barrios became apparent, shortly after which the collections of Benites and Stover served to satisfy the hunger for scores - probably in about equal number which would explain why quite a few players ended up playing the third A.


Some of the rhythmic differences we hear in the introduction (e.g. m.4) are also derived from the Giorgio collection (hence Benites) - nothing to do with artistic interpretation, simply reading a different score.

There are also around 30-40 other measures with small differences which occur in both the Giorgio and the El Salvador ms. I don't have the time to check these against the Benites but suspect that there will be a match if anyone care to follow up.
Whoww thanks for all the trouble you went to here Mark.The research you have done is most helpful in understanding Barrios .The other inputs in this debate are of course also most helpful in this regard.Great stuff

Eliseo
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Eliseo » Fri May 31, 2019 3:46 pm

I have read everything that Guitarist_le is advised and all the tips seem good to me. But I think Guitarist_le asks "when he can master the Tremolo in a perfect way".
In my own opinion, as you tell us, you can interpret "Recuerdos de la Alhambra", then where is the problem?
If not, it is that I have not understood what you are asking or what you are referring to.

Regards

Eliseo Fresquet-Serret
 

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guitarist_le
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by guitarist_le » Fri May 31, 2019 3:57 pm

Eliseo wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:46 pm
I have read everything that Guitarist_le is advised and all the tips seem good to me. But I think Guitarist_le asks "when he can master the Tremolo in a perfect way".
In my own opinion, as you tell us, you can interpret "Recuerdos de la Alhambra", then where is the problem?
If not, it is that I have not understood what you are asking or what you are referring to.

Regards

Eliseo Fresquet-Serret
 
Thanks for your response! Yes, I can interpret tremolo and I can get the slurs in them too. It's just my tremolo is so quiet due to the lack of room there is on the B string. But I recently learned to "dig into" the guitar instead of just pulling upward. My right left hand position is also improving since I have an instructor now.

I think tremolo is something you just have to keep practicing and you can lose it as quickly as you gain it.

Eliseo
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Eliseo » Fri May 31, 2019 4:26 pm

Well now that you have an instructor I think it will be the best way. There are things that can not be taught or learned from a distance. Naturally, through Skype, it is another world, then you can see the fingers, the position, etc ...
I wish you good luck with your instructor !!
Regards

Eliseo Fresquet-Serret
 

Mr.Rain
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:25 pm

lagartija wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:02 pm
My choice for a tremolo piece would be Una Limosna, or Campanas de Alba. I have no desire to work on RDLA.
Having RDLA under my belt for several years(nice piece but i feel that I need other "long" tremolo pieces), I just started studying Campanas finding it very interesting,even the simple parts sound incredible in the hands of talented players :D (ie. Scott Tennant). On the other hand I am glad I play a short scale instrument otherwise my hands could not handle Campanas 1sts bars :mrgreen:

Regarding OP Carcassi "tremolo" study was the way to learn to walk before running at least for me..

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