Blasted " -2" - Chord?

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Chris Davis

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by Chris Davis » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:46 am

Okay, let me solve this problem.

In chord chart notation, generally, the presence of 2 v. 9 is determined by whether or not there's a seventh in the chord. 2= no seventh! 9=7th. It's really that simple.

sus2 means that 2nd scale degree replaces the third in the chord. add9 means you add a second scale degree to the chord. We could go into octaves and all that crap, but the fact of the matter is that the rules are different on guitar--we CAN'T put a 2 in between the 1 and 3 of a chord, and our voicings are way spaced out most of the time (open voicing v. closed voicing etc.)

So lets review, spellings in scale degrees
X2 chord: 1 3 5 2(somewhere in there, doesn't matter)
sus2: 1 2 5

In any case, here are the chords you student wants:
in tablike notation, 6th to 1st string

D2: xx0230 (yes, this is a sus2 chord, it doesn't really matter, I promise)
C2: x32033
E2/G#: I would forget about the two here, again, doesn't really matter.
Here's a E/G# voicing though: 42x400 (just mute the fourth string with the index finger on the 5th string)
That said, if your student is playing with a bass player, tell him/her to be lazy: forget about the slash part of the chord, that's what (good) bass players are for.

Finally, P&W music is transcribed mostly with a piano in mind. There's a lot of useless crap on the chords of that, because they analyze EVERY CHORD THE PIANO DOES! That, my friends in nonsense. Most of those chords are just passing motion between voicings of the same chord, and it sounds dumb on the chord when you switch around that much. When I played this stuff, I played about half the chords on the page, just learn to strip things down to what really needs to be heard, and let the piano do its own thing.

Chris Davis

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by Chris Davis » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:50 am

avoz wrote:Alas, the above got scrambled somehow, the figures aligned in the reply box being squeezed up - will try again to set out the two right-hand columns:

FULL SIGNATURE ABBREVIATIONS

7 7 or 7 Root pos.
5 5
3

6 6 First Inv.
5 5
3

6 4 2nd Inv.
4 3
3

6 4 or 2 3rd Inv.
4 2
2
This is incorrect, in the context. Yes, you're spot on with your inversions, but that's not was a D2 chord is. It's not a D7 in its third inversion.

grwagner

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by grwagner » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:56 am

Boyscout wrote:Finally, P&W music is transcribed mostly with a piano in mind. There's a lot of useless crap on the chords of that, because they analyze EVERY CHORD THE PIANO DOES! That, my friends in nonsense. Most of those chords are just passing motion between voicings of the same chord, and it sounds dumb on the chord when you switch around that much. When I played this stuff, I played about half the chords on the page, just learn to strip things down to what really needs to be heard, and let the piano do its own thing.
That's a point well worth making. Most of this music is possible to play using only A and E major and minor open chord shapes, using barre chords up the neck for all the rest. For a bit of colour, open C, G and D can also be used. I accompany my wife on the piano (mostly Turkish classical and folk music) and believe me, it's all you need. It's also really boring :russa: , but she gives me dirty looks when I start playing arpeggios and runs instead of straight chords :nerveux:

JohnRoss

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by JohnRoss » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:21 pm

Boyscout wrote:sus2 means that 2nd scale degree replaces the third in the chord.
I'd have said (no, I did say) it should replace the first. Wikipedia says I'm wrong and you're right, but that orignally the whole "suspended" thing came from counterpoint and so it depends where the voice is going, and a 2nd note can go either way. You're right, though, sus2 in modern usage is the second instead of the third.
we CAN'T put a 2 in between the 1 and 3 of a chord
Of course we can. Not that we should, in this case, because the "sus" means the note is replaced, not added. But we can. Play C on the sixth string, E on the fifth, and the other strings open, you have a beautiful Csus2 with a sweet little major seventh to add flavour.
D2: xx0230 (yes, this is a sus2 chord, it doesn't really matter, I promise)
Nice. More a sus 9 than a sus 2, but I suppose it doesn't matter (I don't go along with your 9 as necessarily containing the seventh. It implies a seventh, major or minor, which doesn't have to sound. But it is nearer a sus2 than this:
C2: x32033
which is also nice, but not a sus2 by any definition. It's an added ninth, usually called Cmaj9. Why is this no way a sus2? Because neither the first nor the third are replaced, and I insist that a suspended chord must not contain one of its normal notes, we're talking about the third. The 2 must replaces the 3, not sound at the same time.
E2/G#: I would forget about the two here, again, doesn't really matter.
Here's a E/G# voicing though: 42x400 (just mute the fourth string with the index finger on the 5th string)
What's wrong with this for an E2/G#? Easy to play, sounds good:
4 x 4 4 5 x
That said, if your student is playing with a bass player, tell him/her to be lazy: forget about the slash part of the chord, that's what (good) bass players are for.
Knew they must be good for something. :)
Finally, P&W music is transcribed mostly with a piano in mind. There's a lot of useless crap on the chords of that, because they analyze EVERY CHORD THE PIANO DOES! That, my friends in nonsense. Most of those chords are just passing motion between voicings of the same chord, and it sounds dumb on the chord when you switch around that much. When I played this stuff, I played about half the chords on the page, just learn to strip things down to what really needs to be heard, and let the piano do its own thing.
Know what you mean, but sometimes that kind of transcription gives you valuable melodic ideas (or counter-melodic, is that a word?). I can't speak about P&W, but busker's parts which are overfussy are often taken, as you say, from piano parts which are IN TURN arrangements reflecting what a whole band was doing in the original. Those chords may contain something that started out as a brass section. They may be dispensable but they aren't useless crap.

avoz

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by avoz » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:44 pm

Boyscout wrote: This is incorrect, in the context. Yes, you're spot on with your inversions, but that's not was a D2 chord is. It's not a D7 in its third inversion.
Boyscout, Without looking at the score in question and the context in which the Blasted D2 is set I was guessing that the mention of religious music might suggest realisation of figured bass (in which art trained organists are skilled). If the note D is on the stave and a 'signature' 2 is beneath it then a third inversion of the seventh chord is signified. avoz

The Ethical

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by The Ethical » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:05 pm

I can really tell you guys aren't playing from the same hymn sheet :mrgreen:


Ted

(sorry, couldn't resist)

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Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by remmus » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:11 pm

R2'sD2

It's a robot's chord. :wink:
"...it is awfully easy to become content with a level below what one is actually capable of." - Carl Peter

Chris Davis

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by Chris Davis » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:21 am

JohnRoss wrote: Nice. More a sus 9 than a sus 2, but I suppose it doesn't matter (I don't go along with your 9 as necessarily containing the seventh. It implies a seventh, major or minor, which doesn't have to sound. But it is nearer a sus2 than this:
Do you play jazz? No 7th = no intervals or extensions written above the octave, sorry. Not only that, but suspended chords do not include compound intervals in the chord name.

Case in point:
What would this chord be: x35363?
Would you call it a C7sus11? No. It's a C7sus4. Because the third is more than an octave above the root in this voicing makes little difference.

I understand P&W music is not jazz, but the rules really do still apply.

which is also nice, but not a sus2 by any definition. It's an added ninth, usually called Cmaj9. Why is this no way a sus2? Because neither the first nor the third are replaced, and I insist that a suspended chord must not contain one of its normal notes, we're talking about the third. The 2 must replaces the 3, not sound at the same time.
No. Ask a jazz pianist to play a maj9 chord sometime. They'll play a major 7th in there to. Notice the lack of "sus" in my chord name--I didn't name it a sus chord, because it isn't.. It really just has a 2 in there, an octave higher than the root. I better name for the chord I posted would be Cadd2 (or 9, again, same note, doesn't really matter). But everything gets a little garbled up here. There's voicings of power chord that include an added 2nd scale degree, yet they're named X5add9. It's a strange sort of mess of things.

You say Cmaj9 I think...
x3243x
or
xx2433
or
x79737

One of those is an actually Cmaj9 voicing (and a pretty one at that, the first). The other two are minor 7th chords build on the third of the chord, which makes a maj9 chord ...if you have a bassist or good rhythm section backing you up, then that's a-okay.

JohnRoss wrote:
Boyscout wrote:E2/G#: I would forget about the two here, again, doesn't really matter.
Here's a E/G# voicing though: 42x400 (just mute the fourth string with the index finger on the 5th string)
What's wrong with this for an E2/G#? Easy to play, sounds good:
4 x 4 4 5 x
I actually screwed up my voicing there. should be: 4x2400

And your chord works fine.


The info in this thread is far to garbled!

Chris Davis

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by Chris Davis » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:28 am

Another good question, and point.

Do you play a C6 the same way you play a C13?

I hope not!

C13 is a dominant chord, C6 is not.
Nice. More a sus 9 than a sus 2, but I suppose it doesn't matter (I don't go along with your 9 as necessarily containing the seventh. It implies a seventh, major or minor, which doesn't have to sound. But it is nearer a sus2 than this:
Also, another point. There's really only two notes in a chord that actually matter for the rhythm guitarist: the third, and the 7th, in jazz these are called "guide tones". The fifth is nice, but not necessary (see common practice harmony); the root is theoretically covered by the bass player. So if a chord says something like....Cmaj9, that 7th (a major 7th) really does matter...alot. It helps define the chord.

JohnRoss

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by JohnRoss » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:48 pm

Boyscout wrote:What would this chord be: x35363?
Would you call it a C7sus11? No. It's a C7sus4. Because the third is more than an octave above the root in this voicing makes little difference.
It's a Csus11. See http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory17.htm. This:
x 3 3 3 1 x
might be considered a C7sus4. It isn't the distance above the root so much as its relationship to the minor 7th.
Last edited by JohnRoss on Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnRoss

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by JohnRoss » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:56 pm

Boyscout wrote:...There's really only two notes in a chord that actually matter for the rhythm guitarist: the third, and the 7th, in jazz these are called "guide tones". The fifth is nice, but not necessary (see common practice harmony); the root is theoretically covered by the bass player. So if a chord says something like....Cmaj9, that 7th (a major 7th) really does matter...alot. It helps define the chord.
Absolutely right, the tonic is almost the most dispensable of your chord tones. Works without a bass player, as well, though, it isn't because someone else is playing the note, it is because the note is so strong in the whole idea of the key - it's in the listener's head already, doesn't need stating. Whereas the third and seventh tell the listener what to expect next - the listener wants to hear the third rise, and the seventh fall, in the case of a dominant chord for example, because of the semitone pull. The way I was taught harmony, at least.

paul_b

Re: Blasted " -2" - Chord?

Post by paul_b » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:25 pm

'D2' as a notation could be intended as either 'sus2' or 'add 9'. I would guess the former - if a ninth chord is intended, why not say so? A classic instance of using a non-standard chord naming system that results in unnecessary ambiguity.

In rock music, a chord will sometimes be notated as e.g., A5 or Eb5. This means a chord that contains only roots and fifths - no modal degrees (3rd or 6th) and no 7ths. This notation is perfectly well understood by rock players because it was developed within the rock community to describe the so-called "power chord". I suspect that to most classical players it would be meaningless, and some theorists would argue that it isn't really a chord at all - just a sonority. Nonetheless, once you understand the convention it makes sense of many passages in rock music as nothing else could.

I think your D2 should be notated as what a jazz musician would call a Dsus2. This is a D chord (doesn't matter whether you think of it as major or minor) whose 3rd has been replaced by the 2nd - i.e., in this instance, D F# A becomes D E A. A lot of guitar voicings would automatically put the E up an octave to spread the chord out, but it should be emphasised that this still does not make it any kind of ninth chord.

Ad hoc rules for chord naming, if you want to avoid this kind of confusion.

*** A sus chord consists only of root, fifth, and the 'sus' note or notes ( 2 or 4) - no third or sixth. Notation: sus2, sus4 or just plain 'sus' if you want to give the player the choice of whether to employ 2, 4 or both. If it helps you to think of this chord as a triadic chord (major or minor) whose 3rd has been replaced by the 2, so be it. If you see 'sus' you should be thinking 'no 3rd'.

Examples: Dsus2 = D E A; Dsus4 = D G A; Dsus4+2 = D E G A (these are the notes of the chord, not indications of actual voicings).

*** An added ninth chord is a triadic chord (major or minor) with the 2 note added (third not omitted). The important point here is that the chord will continue to sound major or minor because of the retained 3rd.

Examples: D+9 = D E F# A; D minor+9 = D E F A

*** A ninth chord is an extended 7th chord in which the 2 is added to a 7 chord (i.e., the 3rd and 7th are retained). Again, the important point is that the retention of the 3rd and 7th means that the chord continues to sound and function basically like a dominant 7th, major 7th or minor 7th chord.

Examples: D9 = D F# A C E; D major 9 = D F# A C# E; D minor 9 = D F A C E.

It's better to think of sus chords ('sus2' and 'sus4' chords) and ninth chords ('9', '+9', 'minor 9' or '-9' etc.) as completely different entities, not as versions of each other. Ninth chords are always altered or extended major, minor or dominant chords. Sus chords are suspended sonorities, almost non-modal decorations of the bare fifth or octave.

And as several people have pointed out, the practice of omitting functionally inessential notes from actual chord voicings can make it complicated to see what a chord really is. Seeing F# C E (in any order, probably with doublings) out of context might lead to all kinds of naming weirdness (is this C major #11? F#7b5 (no third)?). In context, it's D9 with the root and 5th omitted: (D) F# (A) C E - a simple dominant chord with an added colour.

What it isn't is 'D2' :)

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