Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

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glassynails
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Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by glassynails » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:17 pm

Recently I've finished learning "Rosita" and am wondering about the use of apoyando, in general in this style of music and more in general in Tarrega's music. Up until now, I really didn't think Rosita needed much of apoyando on it's melodic lines, but I've started using it more and it definitely thickens the lines more and I think it's more in line of what Tarrega would've done.

To me pieces like "Capricho Arabe" and Julia Florida scream for the use of it, but I didn't feel Rosita needed it much, save for maybe the melodic run in the 2nd section. So I guess what I'm wondering is if you think Tarrega would've just used it by default on most of the runs in his pieces. Is this another one of those "controversial" things?

If I'm correct, I would assume that Tarrega and Segovia would've by default used apoyando on most single voice lines?

Here's my Rosita by the way .... (plug :lol: )
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74253
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Frank Nordberg

Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Frank Nordberg » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:11 pm

Apoyando can certainly help emphasize the melodic line and although I wouldn't say it's required for a piece like "Rosita", it's quite apropriate.

You have to be aware of one risk though. It is very easy to loose the beat when playing uptempo pieces apoyando and "Rosita" is a polka. If people don't get the urge to dance when they hear it, it ain't played right.

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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Diego » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:57 am

glassynails wrote:Recently I've finished learning "Rosita" and am wondering about the use of apoyando, in general in this style of music and more in general in Tarrega's music. Up until now, I really didn't think Rosita needed much of apoyando on it's melodic lines, but I've started using it more and it definitely thickens the lines more and I think it's more in line of what Tarrega would've done.

To me pieces like "Capricho Arabe" and Julia Florida scream for the use of it, but I didn't feel Rosita needed it much, save for maybe the melodic run in the 2nd section. So I guess what I'm wondering is if you think Tarrega would've just used it by default on most of the runs in his pieces. Is this another one of those "controversial" things?

If I'm correct, I would assume that Tarrega and Segovia would've by default used apoyando on most single voice lines?

Here's my Rosita by the way .... (plug :lol: )
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74253
I´ve been wondering the same question, as i´m working on Tárrega pieces (See Tárrega madness post).

In Pascual Roch method (Escuela de Tárrega) it explains that on chapters VIII and IX. Basically we can say Tárrega was in favor of the use of rest stroke, sadly all we know about the way he played is reading his disciples writings about technique, etc.

As you say, pieces like Capricho Arabe screams for the use of rest stroke. About Rosita, i play mostly using free stroke.

I commented on your recording, well done!!!

Diego
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Tarbaby (1953 - 2016) » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:59 am

Diego wrote:Basically we can say Tárrega was in favor of the use of rest stroke, sadly all we know about the way he played is reading his disciples writings about technique, etc.
Indeed. I attended Emilio Pujol's master classes (the last surviving pupil of Tarrega) in 1975. Guess what? He was espousing using apoyando for tremolo! :shock:

That was beyond me, but he played without nails. Maybe that makes it easier?

Alan

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robin loops
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by robin loops » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:25 am

Don't all pieces? At least to some degree...
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glassynails
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by glassynails » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:37 am

robin loops wrote:Don't all pieces? At least to some degree...
I wouldn't use it with Carcassi, Sor, Carulli or Giuliani myself and never have in those pieces.
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by choctawchas » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:27 pm

In this case the slurs need to sound as if they are being playing with rest strokes even if they are played using free strokes.
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:57 pm

I don't think the recquirement is a matter of style, I think it is a matter of the sound you can get from it and the way you want the piece or some notes to sound like. If you can get loud or vary the tone without the rest you can do it without rest stroke, if you want an specific sound you only can get with the rest stroke you should use it.
I may use rest strokes with Bach, Sor, Giuliani or whatever. IMO, If the idea is to be faithful to the original technique, you need to play with composer's technique and guitar of the period. I can't get the same apoyando sound I get from a traditional Hauser-style or Torres guitar if I use it in a Smallman guitar, in a Lacote or in a Lute.

Frank Nordberg

Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Frank Nordberg » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:27 pm

Luis_Br wrote:I may use rest strokes with Bach, Sor, Giuliani or whatever. IMO
Back when I was even younger than I am today I spent two or three years studying the renaissance lute and was told by my teacher to use apoyando a lot. At that time I just did what my teacher told me to and didn't check if it was "authentic". It sure sounded goo though.
glassynails wrote:I wouldn't use it with Carcassi, Sor, Carulli or Giuliani myself and never have in those pieces.
I don't want to be rude, glassynails, but I assume your reason is that it isn't "authentic". Yet in another thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74642 you wrote:
glassynails wrote:Bach's BWV 998 is a "study" unto itself. It's a study in playing 12/8 time, it's a study in legato and light phrasing.
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that apoyando in early 19th century music is wrong because it may be slightly inauthentic, while slurs in Bach's music - which is way off style - is OK. Is that right?

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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by glassynails » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:49 am

Frank Nordberg wrote:
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that apoyando in early 19th century music is wrong because it may be slightly inauthentic, while slurs in Bach's music - which is way off style - is OK. Is that right?
There are slurs in my copy of BWV 998 Prelude by Segovia. If Segovia did it, it's ok in my book. I wasn't being rude, I was just saying that I wouldn't use apoyando in Sor's music, that's all. If you wanna use it feel free, I just don't like it in that type of music. Suit yourself, no need to get angry, it's just my taste.
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by pogmoor » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:37 am

I don't think there is anything 'inauthentic' about slurring in Bach - but I also don't see any objection to apoyando in early 19th century music. What is the objection to either :?:
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Frank Nordberg » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:05 am

glassynails wrote:There are slurs in my copy of BWV 998 Prelude by Segovia. If Segovia did it, it's ok in my book. I wasn't being rude, I was just saying that I wouldn't use apoyando in Sor's music, that's all. If you wanna use it feel free, I just don't like it in that type of music. Suit yourself, no need to get angry, it's just my taste.
Segovia would also have used lots of apoyando when he played Sor but as long as you say it's your personal taste, it's OK. :)
pogmoor wrote:I don't think there is anything 'inauthentic' about slurring in Bach
Slurs were certainly used by lutenists and guitarists in Bach's time but not in the way or to the extent as we do today. This is probably not the right time and place to discuss baroque phrasing in detail but I'm sure there's plenty of info about it all over the internet.
pogmoor wrote:but I also don't see any objection to apoyando in early 19th century music. What is the objection to either :?:
In a modern reinterpretation on a modern guitar I see no objections to either.

---

I'm beginning to wonder if everybody agree on what apoyando actually is. To me it's two distinctively different techniques. The regular apoyando is the one where you just adjust the stroke angle slightly (without changing your hand position) to emphasize a note or a phrase. It's quite a subtle and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't fit in any style.
But then there's the BIG apoyando when you raise your wrist, straighten your fingers and throw out that huge, bold tone. That's a really dramatic effect and should perhaps be used with some restraint even in romantic music.

glassynails
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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by glassynails » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Frank Nordberg wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if everybody agree on what apoyando actually is. To me it's two distinctively different techniques. The regular apoyando is the one where you just adjust the stroke angle slightly (without changing your hand position) to emphasize a note or a phrase. It's quite a subtle and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't fit in any style.
But then there's the BIG apoyando when you raise your wrist, straighten your fingers and throw out that huge, bold tone. That's a really dramatic effect and should perhaps be used with some restraint even in romantic music.
Apoyando is apoyando, there may be differences in volume, but it doesn't matter how you do it, it's still a rest stroke. Actually, I forgot I do use apoyando extensively in Sor's famous Study in B Minor.
"GLASSYNAILS" on Youtoob for my "no edit" - "no fakery" audio recordings. Just me, my Alhambra 7p spruce, and an Olympus ls-10 portable recorder.

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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Frank Nordberg » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:35 pm

glassynails wrote:Apoyando is apoyando, there may be differences in volume, but it doesn't matter how you do it
That's what I thought until a few hours ago too but now I'm not so sure. Any classical guitarist and teacher will tell you how important it is to maintain exactly the same hand position when you play apoyando as when you play tirando, and of course that is how an experienced guitarist usually does it. But I think everybody every now and then raise their wrists, straighten their fingers and plays that big apoyando exactly how their teacher told them not too. It's just too wonderful an effect - when used at the right moment - to resist! :)

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Re: Do Tarrega's pieces " -require" - apoyando?

Post by Luis_Br » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

Frank Nordberg wrote: Any classical guitarist and teacher will tell you how important it is to maintain exactly the same hand position when you play apoyando as when you play tirando,
I think it depends the objective. My teacher also tells me how to use different hand and finger poistioning to get different sounds, even if playing only "tirando".

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