D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

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The classical guitar lessons are free. They are aimed at the isolated amateur who does not have access to a teacher. To join the class, apply for registration into the students group.

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Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:29 pm

Understand. If it tires your arm then it's the wrong thing to do. The guitar support is a great thing to use, it's helped both of us :bravo:
Maybe experiment with moving the guitar support up the body a little (to lower the neck a bit )?

How does this compare to yours?
20181110_195517.jpg
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Last edited by Tom Wimsatt on Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:48 pm

Ed Butler wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:06 pm
With the position of my arm here, I find it is a stretch to catch correctly the B note at the beginning of BORU'S MARCH. If I move the elbow out, the stretch is easier but it tires my arm.
That will prepare you for the boxed region on the second page :D
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Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:43 am

Revised: Here's my proposed fingering for Brian Boru's March:
2018-11-21 21.31.49.jpg
2018-11-21 21.32.57.jpg
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Last edited by Tom Wimsatt on Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

Colin Bullock
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Colin Bullock » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:07 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:42 pm
I took a look at Brian Boru's March. After trying various parts out, I am a little puzzled as to the proper fingering. For example:

1) The second and third lines. Applying Line #1 of the piece as an example, I see why "a" is appropriate when it preceeds an "m/i" note pair, but what about the C/D note pair of measure noted as #3? Is that played as "a/i" or "m/i"? It is not intuitive to me.
They're pretty far apart, so I also thought the D might be played with the thumb. It also occurs to me that if I mute the quarter base notes (with my thumb) while playing the 1/8th note, then this fingering strategy (fingers playing C/D versus finger playing C and thumb playing D) seems right.

2) Several areas following the Boxed portion of the second page. I can imagine leading the dotted quaver with "m" or "I"....

3) Speaking of muting, should I mute the base quarter notes. I think so, reading between the lines so to speak. The author placed the 1/8th base note right on top of the 1st voice in some cases. Why else would this be done (other than to make things work mathematically)? It is not indicated on the score ( using the " * " symbol). But the fingering issue mentioned above (and elsewhere in the piece) becomes a little more solvable.

So basically, I'm confused. I ran into this often in the Frederic Noad books I've worked with in the past, so maybe it's just me. When I am unsure of fingering my playing sort of takes on a random pattern, whatever works that day. It makes the piece harder to learn and at times frustrating.

I know this is a bad habit, but how does one (a student) sort out proper fingering without driving themselves nuts in the process? Perhaps its as simple as penciling in an approach and working iteratively on refinement as I practice the piece?

I hope the above questions makes sense. Perhaps I could pencil in my fingering approach and let people comment, before spending a lot of time practicing it?
Tom
1) in #3 I would play the C/D in the same way as line 1 a then mi to keep the pattern, but as you say, it wouldn't be wrong to use pm on the C/D.
2) I would try to keep the alternation going
3) yes mute them if they are open strings. At this level you won't always find the damping marked.
Hope that helps

Ed Butler
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Ed Butler » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:32 pm

Hi Tom - I shifted my guitar support to line up with yours. It certainly lowers the neck. Now if I can just get my posture right, these pieces will sound better.

Ed

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:00 am

Hi Ed. As long as it helps with your arm fatigue (unless anybody out there has any other suggestions) try that out for a while. It may feel a little weird at first, but I hope not too much so. Let us know how things go.
1989 Takamine C132S
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Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:07 am

Colin Bullock wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Tom
1) in #3 I would play the C/D in the same way as line 1 a then mi to keep the pattern, but as you say, it wouldn't be wrong to use pm on the C/D.
2) I would try to keep the alternation going
3) yes mute them if they are open strings. At this level you won't always find the damping marked.
Hope that helps
Thanks Colin. I've made fingering pattern updates based on your comments, although I'm going to apply P-M on the C/D notes. In fact, after watching Jean-Francois Delcamp's video, I'm going to use my thumb on all base notes unless otherwise noted in the score. I'll practice using the update & revise as required, and repost a markup once I'm ready to upload an attempt at this piece. I kind of like this one.
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

Ed Butler
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Ed Butler » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm

Hi Tom - I agree with the thumb used on the base notes of the MARCH. For me, my eye catches that the staff of these notes is down, which I relate to the thumb.

For the MARCH, even though I count slow, I still trip up on the 4,5+6 of the 1st,2nd, 3rd... measures. I am good with the 1,2+3 but my brain wants it to be 4,5,6 instead of 4, 5+6.

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:09 pm

Ed Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm
Hi Tom - I agree with the thumb used on the base notes of the MARCH. For me, my eye catches that the staff of these notes is down, which I relate to the thumb.
I agree with you. I am having to get used to hitting a base note "A" with my thumb instead of "i or m".
Ed Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:05 pm
For the MARCH, even though I count slow, I still trip up on the 4,5+6 of the 1st,2nd, 3rd... measures. I am good with the 1,2+3 but my brain wants it to be 4,5,6 instead of 4, 5+6.
Hmmm. Be sure and keep your index finger in place when playing this part (applicable in #1). This sort of assumes the problem is with placing both fingers on notes 5&6 simultaneously?

If this helps just practice that for a while before moving to simultaneous placement of two unique notes (work on measures #1, then #2, before tackling #3, progressively difficult ). I can upload a sample if that helps.
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Ed Butler
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Ed Butler » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:51 pm

I think I am good with the fingering. It is just the rhythm I need to get in my head. You say to keep your index finger in place (for full measure #1), but that is only for the first 3 beats - correct? Then it is my understanding you keep your second finger in place for notes 4,5+6. Is that correct?

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:57 pm

Robert Goodwin wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:05 pm

Hi Tom,
You are absolutely right that simply letting the fingers choose which one to use doesn't work well at all. If I may offer my limited experience, here are a few things I've learned that helped.

After many false starts in D01 and D02, I came to be religious about obeying any finger markings, both ima and 1234. Where there are markings at the beginning of a piece but not all the way through, I tend to use the earlier marked fingering in similar situations further on. The repetition is easier to remember. This is pretty common with arpeggios. When I was printing the lessons, I tended to mark my own notations wherever I felt I needed help. Sometimes I just needed to repeat the markings for my aging eyes. Fortunately cataract surgery has eliminated that problem. In one case, a rapid fire section of Malaguenia without markings, I simply couldn't get any speed going. In desperation, I watched the Professor's video again and noticed in the middle of that flurry of notes he used his thumb. Suddenly it all fell into place.

This is all anecdotal and generalized but hopefully there is some small nugget of information you can extract.
Best regards,
Bob G.
Hello again. I just reread your post, and I am at the "many false starts " part of the learning process. I also have learned (the hard way I'm afraid ) the importance of watching the professor's videos in trying to work out fingering of the Boru's March piece.

The fingering markup I posted is messed up, I think I totally missed the "base line/voice" concept. .... I'm revising it, and I am having to relearn portions of it

Thanks again for your input! It was right on target.
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:02 am

Ed Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:51 pm
I think I am good with the fingering. It is just the rhythm I need to get in my head. You say to keep your index finger in place (for full measure #1), but that is only for the first 3 beats - correct? Then it is my understanding you keep your second finger in place for notes 4,5+6. Is that correct?
Yes Ed. You are correct. I don't know what I was thinking :?
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:18 am

Here's my Valtz upload :

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Ed Butler
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Ed Butler » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:38 pm

Tom - very well done. Accented first beats which adds a nice waltz movement. I liked the very light finger pressure you use on the left hand, allowing easy access up and down the neck - one of my daily practice goals.

Ed

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Thanks Ed. I had to really practice the 5th and 7th position moves to hit those notes reliably. I've been working on relaxation of both hands while playing. It does help things.
1989 Takamine C132S
Yamaha CG-100A

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