The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

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Jean-François Delcamp
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The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Jean-François Delcamp » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:49 pm







:( + ♫ = :)

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owl
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by owl » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:26 am

Great videos JF... thanks for posting :D

Owl
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by pmiklitz » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:57 am

Excellent videos! I was quite surprised about Alice Artzt's RH wrist position though, as most methods nowadays recommend to keep the RH wrist as straight as possible, so the tendons can move as easily as possible. She points out that this has several disadvantages, such as an underdeveloped RH thumb leading to independency problems, unnecessary arm movements, scraping sounds on the wound strings, etc.. Her way requires a totally relaxed RH wrist, which sounds very good anatomically, but will lead to a bent RH wrist inevitably.

I don't know too much about other instruments, but it always strikes me that guitar technique is still under a lot of discussion and there doesn't seem to be one right way to do things. This is what makes it so difficult for beginners and also for teachers.

I will certainly experiment with her recommendations and maybe it is time again to unlearn things that you have been doing "wrong" for years.

Never a dull moment when you are a guitar player,

Peter
Dringt durch des Aberglaubens Nacht, die Euch zu finstern Köpfen macht. Christian Fürchtegott Gellert (1715 - 1769)

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:57 am

Exactly my thoughts, Peter!
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:06 am

I bet she's a fantastic teacher one to one. I actually heard her play many years ago at the Wigmore Hall in London, excellent guitarist and musician. These videos are full of interesting information for a person interested in guitar technique.

avoz

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by avoz » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:59 am

Denian, The late John Duarte, who probably knew more about guitar pedagogy than most, rated Alice Artzt very highly - his 'Sonatinette' (also performed by her on You Tube) is dedicated to her. Her book 'The Art of Practising Guitar' should be in everyone's library and, combined with these videos on DVD (with supporting studies and pieces interspersed) would provide a method to equal the best. No doubt the promulgators of the 'new' (actually very old in essence) school - which polaces the right hand in line with the arm (thereby creating tension) - will trot out the old excuse about possible tendon damage, ignoring the fact that Segovia, Presti, Bream, Williams and many other practitioners of the so-called 'Tarrega school' played for many years without experiencing such imagined problems.

orest_k

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by orest_k » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:46 am

Very nice videos.Contained very useful information about guitar and hands position even for beginners, despite the intimidating title.
I especially liked the way she analyzed all the details on every advice she provided
and didnt go the way most teachers do, like " do this and that, dont ask why, just thank me in 10-15 years".

thanks a lot

Tarbaby (1953 - 2016)

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Tarbaby (1953 - 2016) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:18 am

orest_k wrote: " do this and that, dont ask why, just thank me in 10-15 years".
Very funny, orest_k! :lol:

Thank you SO much, JFD!

I had not thought to look for Alice Artz on Youtube, but these videos are wonderful!

I met her 25 years ago through our mutual friend, Sergio Abreu. Four years ago, I contacted her to ask about Sergio and his guitars. She put me back in contact with him and I got one of his guitars. Custom made! (He knew my playing and crafted the guitar to fit.)

It was such a warm feeling to see his name through the soundhole in these videos!

:merci:

Alan

avoz

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by avoz » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:36 pm

Perhaps some equally warm feeling could be created by seeing his name on some new recordings - the solo pieces included with the duos recorded with his brother on their L.P.'s and BBC Radio broadcasts showed what marvellous players they both were. The duo recordings are matched only by Presti-Lagoya, the Assad Duo and a few more.

AsturiasFan

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by AsturiasFan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:38 pm

pmiklitz wrote:Excellent videos! I was quite surprised about Alice Artzt's RH wrist position though, as most methods nowadays recommend to keep the RH wrist as straight as possible, so the tendons can move as easily as possible. She points out that this has several disadvantages, such as an underdeveloped RH thumb leading to independency problems, unnecessary arm movements, scraping sounds on the wound strings, etc.. Her way requires a totally relaxed RH wrist, which sounds very good anatomically, but will lead to a bent RH wrist inevitably.
I experimented with this position a while back and ended up with a really sore wrist. Artzt added some details, so I'll think I'll try again.

Another thing I found very curious. World class musicians such as Niedt, Tennant, and Parkening, recommend arm weight for bar chords but Niedt's method of achieving it with a pull would be considered grossly incorrect by Artzt. It would be interesting to know how Artzt approaches bar chords.

Roland Schlieder has another system of RH technique which is not consistent with Presti's and has a different philosophy. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36092

I think the most interesting consequence of Artz's and Schlieder's videos is that technology is now allowing guitar pedagogy to finally take off. Method books for basic movements can't cut it anymore. I expect in less than 20 years, common players will have easy access to great explanations of a full range of high level techniques that they could normally only get with access to a world class guitarist. For now there are some common everyday teachers whose quality surpasses that of Tennant because of their willingness to share minute details through video. When the world class players decide to get on the bandwagon its going to be pretty exciting.

Tarbaby (1953 - 2016)

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Tarbaby (1953 - 2016) » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:48 pm

avoz wrote:Perhaps some equally warm feeling could be created by seeing his name on some new recordings - the solo pieces included with the duos recorded with his brother on their L.P.'s and BBC Radio broadcasts showed what marvellous players they both were. The duo recordings are matched only by Presti-Lagoya, the Assad Duo and a few more.
That would be sweet, avoz! Unfortunately, he and his brother haven't been playing for over 20 years... :(

Last time I spoke with Sergio(about 4 years ago) he was experimenting with his new software to archive his solo and duo recordings from the past, however. (He even sent me a few CDs when he sent my guitar. One is of them playing at a house party!)

I've heard that, in the meantime, he's made them available to the public. Not sure how to get them, though.

Alan

AsturiasFan

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by AsturiasFan » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:15 pm

I viewed these videos again to see specifically how Artz sets the string vibrating. The third video seems to show that the string is pulled horizontally and it is movement of the string along the fingernail that then depresses the string. This seems to agree with what she said in her first video. Along the lines of Roland Schlieder's pedagogy she could have shown a lateral view (neck pointing toward the viewer) showing exactly what’s going on with the finger joints. In particular I would like to know exactly how she releases the string and how the finger clears the next string.

My final comment is to indicate that clearance can not be obtained with a pure pendulum movement from the big knuckle as she seems to have claimed. To me it is very clear that clearance can only be achieved with an eventual upward movement of the fingertip. I believe this to be mathematical fact and have the proof below.

On my guitar the distance between strings is exactly 1 cm. My longest finger is 11 cm from large knuckle to tip. Nails or lack of such is not relevant to this discussion since with nails the distance is measured from large knuckle to nail tip. Assuming a pendulum movement with the knuckle directly over the string there is a vertical clearance of

11 – Sqrt(11 squared – 1 squared) = 11 – Sqrt(120) = 0.0455 cm = 0.455 mm.

on the adjacent string. The point is that even with different finger lengths and hand positions a pendulum motion only provides approximately a half mm of clearance, which is less than the diameter of the high E-string. This means that if you had the ability to just clear the adjacent string by a hundredth of a mm, you can only depress the sounding string by a half mm. Conversely if you depress the sounding string by just a half mm you absoluely will hit the adjacent string. Other motions are obviously in play.

Grahamb

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Grahamb » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:59 pm

I had a look at her You Tube performance of John Duarte's Sonatinette, well played and very musical but her right wrist is so bent it made me shudder. What about her poor tendons? :(
On the other hand :wink: her right wrist on the excellent videos above is nowhere near as bent as in the Duarte one which is obviously quite a few years old.

Graham

tronche

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by tronche » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:54 am

Wow, this is really helpful. Thank you yet again Delcamp!

avoz

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by avoz » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:24 am

Grahamb wrote:I had a look at her You Tube performance of John Duarte's Sonatinette, well played and very musical but her right wrist is so bent it made me shudder. What about her poor tendons?:
Grahamb, The answer is clearly that her "poor" tendons are doing fine after approx. fifty years of playing the instrument and a better question would be, where did this silly idea that tendons are composed of some sort of cotton-candy thread originate? Another, related question might be, what is the effect of continual tension in arm and hand due to raising the hand in line with the arm (obviating ther relaxation which comes from allowing ther weight of the hand to take advantage of gravity)? Other factors, such as the minimising of plucking angles and turning the guitar into a monotone instrument similar to the piano might also be considered.

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