The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

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mordent

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by mordent » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:59 am

I cannot understand how turning the wrist outward can be done without tension. It seems to me that the very act of turning the wrist out and more importantly MAINTAINING such position requires muscular effort and therefore tension since the hand is no longer in its natural repose i.e. in line with the arm. Whether or not such R.H. position is an impediment to technique is another matter. There are many Masters of the instrument who have such a hand position including Segovia , Tarrega, Laurindo Almeida ,etc and of course Alice herself .

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Paul
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Paul » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:37 pm

I think some people have much floppier wrists. My wrist isn't perfectly straight, but I can't hang it down at the angle Alica Artzt has.

Luis_Br
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:32 am

mordent wrote:It seems to me that the very act of turning the wrist out and more importantly MAINTAINING such position requires muscular effort and therefore tension since the hand is no longer in its natural repose i.e. in line with the arm.
She doesn't say anytime to turn the wrist in a forced position. She says "just relax and let it fall". Although it seems she forces a kind of turning, specially if you watch other videos like the Sonatinette, I could do it without turning it, but just letting it falling down in a straight way, as she explains on the lessons. But even with the wrist more straight, if you let it falling down, it makes an angle on the arm that may be also unconfortable if you close the fingers toward the hand. The trick I found is that you don't really need to make big movements with the fingers closing the hand (and then you won't fill unconfortable when playing), because you can easily use very small arm movements up or with a very small rotation to get a powerfull tone without needing to much finger effort.

These are just my thoughts on the position. Alice plays like this for a very long time and she does not have any problem with her hands, so I think there might be a way to make it work. But as I've said, I wouldn't risk to use this technique or any other without proper teacher guidance.

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Steve Kutzer
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Steve Kutzer » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:48 pm

Steve Kutzer wrote:What's a little mysterious to me about playing parallel to the strings is she demonstrates a nail ramp and how the string rides up and then releases, giving a good direction of vibration. But then looking at her fingers, it seems like the nail attack is straight on, so the only riding would be up the inside of the nail.
Sorry to quote myself, but I still don't see an answer to this. How can your stroke ride the ramp of your nail if that ramp is presented parallel to the string?
See my technology (and guitar!) site CIO Dojo

Luis_Br
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Luis_Br » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:46 am

Steve Kutzer wrote:
Steve Kutzer wrote:What's a little mysterious to me about playing parallel to the strings is she demonstrates a nail ramp and how the string rides up and then releases, giving a good direction of vibration. But then looking at her fingers, it seems like the nail attack is straight on, so the only riding would be up the inside of the nail.
Sorry to quote myself, but I still don't see an answer to this. How can your stroke ride the ramp of your nail if that ramp is presented parallel to the string?
I think the answer is that we shouldn't take the "paralel advice" as perfectly 100%, exactly 90 degrees paralel, as we can notice through the youtube videos that Alice nor Ida play perfectly paralel to the strings. A very small change and the sort of rotation and arm movement also help with it.
But this is just my guessing. I agree with you the explanation is not deep enough...

Sean

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Sean » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:16 pm

Just discovered this thread and video - a great resource!

Eith

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Eith » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:57 am

Thanks for posting these videos. I've just started learning how to play guitar on my own and this explains some things I probably would not have figured out for quite some time!

cerusin

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by cerusin » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:05 pm

I am somewhat confused as to the position of wrist in this video. When I first studied classical guitar back in the eighties I was taught to hold my wrist in a similar manner. Basically the way Segovia taught. Then 2 years later a new professor came in and changed my wrist position quite drastically. The modern position did not have that much of a bend. Now it seems were back to the bent wrist again. changing my wrist the first time screwed up playing for quite awhile.
Which is the accepted modern approach?

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:53 pm

Hi cerusin - the most common modern approach (by far) is for the straight or nearly straight wrist. But there are some outstanding exceptions to this even today, the one who springs to my mind is Roland Dyens.
So I suppose basically the best approach is to pick the form that suits you and works for you.

cerusin

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by cerusin » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Thanks Denian. I wasn't really going to change because there is nothing really wrong with my technique. But when I see these kind of things it puzzles me. All of what she says makes sense. It just seems that often conflicting techniques are presented. Like the 4th finger on the 3rd fret versus the 3rd finger. All my life I played the G with my 3rd finger and it was fine.
I think figuring out what works for oneself is probably best.

Ted O'Farrell

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Ted O'Farrell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 am

Thank you for the wonderful videos, I always enjoy the artistry
and expertise of Alice Artzt.

Ted :)

avoz

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by avoz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:34 am

Denian Arcoleo wrote:Hi cerusin - the most common modern approach (by far) is for the straight or nearly straight wrist. But there are some outstanding exceptions to this even today, the one who springs to my mind is Roland Dyens.
Denian, And, of course, John Williams, Flavio Cucchi (some fine videos of his duets with Nuccio D'Angelo on YT) et (many) al. It would be difficult to quantify the adherents to each 'school'.

Eliana Toledo Romero

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Eliana Toledo Romero » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:52 am

Thank you :bravo: :merci: :casque: :bravo: :bravo: :applauso: :applauso:

orbiterred

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by orbiterred » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:02 pm

This was definitely very informative and a great watch but...

The Simple Answer: There is no one "perfect" position for everyone.

Never in these discussions do i hear much about ones forearm length, finger length, or overall body size. Aren't these factors all going to play into how one holds the instrument etc...?? I have a friend who is an excellent player, and he seems to adopt this approach with relative ease, however his forearm is probably 6 inches shorter than mine along with shorter fingers so when his arm "relaxes" naturally the break angle in his wrist relative to the strings is ALOT less than mine. I have a longer forearm, and much longer fingers than he, so if i was to employ this technique exactly as described my the angle of my wrist is just ridiculous.

I don't agree with everyone saying that a bent/relaxed wrist is inherently bad, but an over bent wrist definitely has it's problems, bend you wrist fully and you can see that making a fist or doing some of the motions she describes is not only impossible but becomes very painfull very quickly.

Also, if i compensate for the legnth of my forearm by pulling my elbow back then i am resting directly on the lower tendons which caused me some minor problems for awhile until i remedied the situation.

The simple fact of the matter is that the "straight-wrist" approach doesn't introduce enough tension into the equation to be detrimental (someone quoted bream, segovia et all as an example of the bent wrist approach, well, look at Russell, Barreuco, Bolshoy, countless others for an example of the straight approach). It depends on your anatomy as to which approach would work best for you, and this is where a knowledgeable teacher is invaluable.

I think the main problem with either approach (and she illustrates this) is the fact that most of us don't have enough finger independance no matter which position we use, ESPECIALLY the thumb, and combinations of thumb and other fingers. This is almost always what causes unnescessary motion in the hand, leading to tension and possibly injury.

I believe that if one concentrates totally on developing independant motion between the thumb and other fingers first and foremost, either position will work equally as well if it is properly chosen based on ones physical charateristics.

/end diatribe

fuyioioih

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by fuyioioih » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:39 am

Seems there is no end to learning new things.
Thank you for posting her work.
This is the most informative discussion of this subject I have seen.

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