The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

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tapsa

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by tapsa » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:41 am

Perhaps someone will find following passage from Liona Boyd's interview interesting http://www.classicalguitar.com/uploads/ ... a_Boyd.pdf
When you studied with Lagoya did you learn to play off the right side of your nails?

Yes, but that damaged a lot of people's hands. I no longer play this way but there are still remnants of it in my technique.
-tapsa-

orbiterred

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by orbiterred » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:53 pm

thanks for the article with liona!

googee52

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by googee52 » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:28 pm

Obiterred wrote "Never in these discussions do i hear much about ones forearm length, finger length, or overall body size. Aren't these factors all going to play into how one holds the instrument etc...?? "

I think these very valuable videos show us the physics of what we are trying to accomplish to produce tone. How each of us get there is going to be a little different due to our physical characteristics. While it is insightful to realize the shape of the nail as it crosses the string is what gets the downward motion, I wonder how the awakener of modern guitar - Tarrega - did it. didn't he play without fingernails?

orbiterred

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by orbiterred » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:17 pm

These videos definitely provide great insight into tone production, no question. But i guess my thing is that i've never really come across anyone addressing right-hand technique looking at the variables of arm legnth, finger length etc... maybe i'm way off about that but I feel it definitely plays into how one is most easily able to relax the hand while maintaining control over the positioning of the gutiar.

I guess to further illustrate my point, look at the techniques of Jason Vieux, compared to David Russell, compared to Segovia, three very different body/hand structures, three (seemingly) very different right hand techniques. The basic idea is the same for all three, the motion comes from the large knuckle, but the positioning of the arm etc... seems to vary greatly from person to person.

there seems to be alot of debate (or outright argument) on this board that one hand position is better than another with a sort of "one size fits all" mentality, but i think if you start to factor in other physical attributes there is no way you can argue the superiority of one positon to another.

And unfortunately the "one size fits all" mentality seems to be very common with classical guitar teachers, where they try and fit their students into their mold, instead of analyzing the hand type, arm legnth, tall/short, etc... and coming up with a position that most easily allows the student to apply the large knuckle across the strings approach. whether that be with a straight wrist, relaxed wrist, or whatever the case may be.

I believe tarrega played with nails for most of his concertizing career then switched to a no nails approach later in his life.

choctawchas

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by choctawchas » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 am

googee52 wrote:Obiterred wrote "Never in these discussions do i hear much about ones forearm length, finger length, or overall body size. Aren't these factors all going to play into how one holds the instrument etc...?? "

I think these very valuable videos show us the physics of what we are trying to accomplish to produce tone. How each of us get there is going to be a little different due to our physical characteristics. While it is insightful to realize the shape of the nail as it crosses the string is what gets the downward motion, I wonder how the awakener of modern guitar - Tarrega - did it. didn't he play without fingernails?
I studied with Masakazu Ito,who did his postgraduate degree with Ricardo Iznaola,who had studied with Regino Sainz de la Maza in spain,
who had studied with Daniel Fortea, who had studied with Tarrega.

The evolution of right hand technique that I use comes from this lineage or school.
This RH technique is based upon a contact point of the forearm on the guitar which is fairly close to the elbow.This is the hinge point.
If you position your forearm this way the entire forearm,hand and fingers will form an arc.
With this arc your hand will hang in a curve.When plucking the strings the RH fingers will feel as if they are coming from underneath the strings
rather than from above.It is difficult to describe and I fear that even with modern video technology just as difficult to see properly.
Although the refinement of the RH position today is less exaggerated than the past , the arc is still present.

Ricardo Iznaola still uses the Tarrega position without any issues of tension or destruction of the playing mechanism.
But it could be that this is the luck of a physiology that can withstand this approach rather than an approach that is considered 'natural'.

I don't believe that a player's physical characteristics matter as long as the point of contact by the forearm produces the arc.
As I was taught, tone is achieved first with the flesh pad of the fingertip making contact with the string
and finished with the nail angled to release the string as quickly and smoothly as possible.
The first goal is to produce as much string vibration as possible.This means as much noise as possible.
I spent the first two years of lessons being urged and rewarded for producing what seemed to me to be an horrendous tone.
What I didn't realise was that volume comes first, refinement towards good tone comes second.
Beautiful tone and warmth of expression is meaningless if they can't hear you beyond the 3rd row.

My teacher, like Tarrega , gradually reduced the length of his fingernails down to the barest of minimum.
If you look at his hand you will see that there is only a tiny bit of nail on the left side of his RH fingers.
Yet he can play with tremendous volume and range of expression.I can personally attest to this having
seen him play with full orchestra in acoustically poor halls seated far from the front rows.

I enjoyed this videos very much and would like thank JFD for posting them.

cheers,douglas

peluche

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by peluche » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:17 pm

douglas,

I have read your observations with great interest; it is not often that one hears from someone representing this older school these days. Personally, although I follow this school to some degree only, can certainly perceive that feeling of the RH fingers coming from underneath the strings at times, especially when playing without nails (as is the case right now).

I would just like to ask you for one clarification:
Although the refinement of the RH position today is less exaggerated than the past , the arc is still present.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here: are you saying that the arc is less pronounced, or that the wrist is somewhat straighter, or both (or something else altogether)?

Thanks in advance, cheers,

-- peluche

choctawchas

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by choctawchas » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:00 am

peluche wrote:douglas,

I have read your observations with great interest; it is not often that one hears from someone representing this older school these days. Personally, although I follow this school to some degree only, can certainly perceive that feeling of the RH fingers coming from underneath the strings at times, especially when playing without nails (as is the case right now).

I would just like to ask you for one clarification:
Although the refinement of the RH position today is less exaggerated than the past , the arc is still present.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here: are you saying that the arc is less pronounced, or that the wrist is somewhat straighter, or both (or something else altogether)?

Thanks in advance, cheers,

-- peluche

First I want to say that I wouldn't be so presumptuous to be a representative of the old school or any of those grand giants of the past,present!
I simply wanted to clarify the way i feel about my lineage,my school if you will and how being a member of that school
affected my training as a classical guitarist .

A great deal has been written about RH/Forearm Position I simply wanted to clarify the way in which I was taught
its history and the way in which I now play. Watching the videos did bring back memories of long discussions with
my teacher Masa Ito!

All roads lead back to Tarrega (perhaps really Arcas) today's CG RH technique is a refinement of the past and the result of the modern look
at avoiding the excesses and the damage that resulted in the exaggeration of that technique when it taken to its logical extreme.

There is also the issue of moving towards an exaggeration of the other direction which has been described as a straight wrist
and forearm/hand.

The key to this is the point of contact by the forearm on the bout of the guitar body.
If you sit in CG position and place the relaxed forearm so that the point of contact (the hinge point)is close to the elbow, the forearm/hand will
naturally form an arc.The high point of the arc will be at the wrist. with the fingers dropping down to reach the strings.
The opposite of this is to sit once again in CG position and place the forearm at a point closer to the halfway point between the elbow and wrist.
The forearm/hand will be straighter and the overall look will be flat with less or non existent curve.This is also known as the short approach
which many people (including myself) have used or advocate.

The way that I was taught still positions the hinge point close to the elbow so that the arc is formed but avoids any exaggerated positions
of the hand and wrist.After many years of experimenting with various approaches I'm basically using the RH position I started with some
key exceptions.

I hope this helps, douglas

User avatar
Kristian Nøhr
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:15 pm
Location: Varde, Denmark

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by Kristian Nøhr » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 am

douglas wrote:
peluche wrote:douglas,

I have read your observations with great interest; it is not often that one hears from someone representing this older school these days. Personally, although I follow this school to some degree only, can certainly perceive that feeling of the RH fingers coming from underneath the strings at times, especially when playing without nails (as is the case right now).

I would just like to ask you for one clarification:
Although the refinement of the RH position today is less exaggerated than the past , the arc is still present.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here: are you saying that the arc is less pronounced, or that the wrist is somewhat straighter, or both (or something else altogether)?

Thanks in advance, cheers,

-- peluche

First I want to say that I wouldn't be so presumptuous to be a representative of the old school or any of those grand giants of the past,present!
I simply wanted to clarify the way i feel about my lineage,my school if you will and how being a member of that school
affected my training as a classical guitarist .

A great deal has been written about RH/Forearm Position I simply wanted to clarify the way in which I was taught
its history and the way in which I now play. Watching the videos did bring back memories of long discussions with
my teacher Masa Ito!

All roads lead back to Tarrega (perhaps really Arcas) today's CG RH technique is a refinement of the past and the result of the modern look
at avoiding the excesses and the damage that resulted in the exaggeration of that technique when it taken to its logical extreme.

There is also the issue of moving towards an exaggeration of the other direction which has been described as a straight wrist
and forearm/hand.

The key to this is the point of contact by the forearm on the bout of the guitar body.
If you sit in CG position and place the relaxed forearm so that the point of contact (the hinge point)is close to the elbow, the forearm/hand will
naturally form an arc.The high point of the arc will be at the wrist. with the fingers dropping down to reach the strings.
The opposite of this is to sit once again in CG position and place the forearm at a point closer to the halfway point between the elbow and wrist.
The forearm/hand will be straighter and the overall look will be flat with less or non existent curve.This is also known as the short approach
which many people (including myself) have used or advocate.

The way that I was taught still positions the hinge point close to the elbow so that the arc is formed but avoids any exaggerated positions
of the hand and wrist.After many years of experimenting with various approaches I'm basically using the RH position I started with some
key exceptions.

I hope this helps, douglas
This is excellent. I myself was taught the "short approach" in the beginning, but now in my adult guitar-life I'm gradually drawn towards the "arc approach" - because of some problems I couldn't solve in the old way. But as you say its about balance. I don't bend my wrist too much, but still I get the "playing from underneath" feeling, with slightly more straightened out fingers - which I feel gives a better tone. And way better control.

But thanks for your great posts! :bravo:
I can't be number 1, I refuse to be number 2 - I am Kristian Nøhr!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman.....Then be Batman.

peluche

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by peluche » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:44 pm

douglas,

thanks a lot for the additional input! This pretty much clarifies it for me. -- Really informative overall, especially your thoughts about the forearm rest point.

Cheers,

-- peluche

googee52

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by googee52 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:53 am

Douglas
Thanks alot for your posts! I never considered the point where my forearm touches the guitar as a hinge point (if I'm understanding you correctly) I'll be exploring different arm positions first chance I get.

tonywarb

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by tonywarb » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:43 am

Fantastic - Thanks. Very Helpfull. :D

drmcmasters

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by drmcmasters » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:55 pm

I'm finding this thread most helpful and informative. Thanks.

peluche

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by peluche » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:23 pm

Hi again,

it just occurs to me: why not ask Alice Artzt herself? If any of the more established players of the forum summarized the questions concerning her videos, as discussed in this thread, into a nice interview and submitted it to her, after asking her politely if she's willing to give it? I can't imagine she will decline, especially if we did this as a community effort.

Of course we could also invite her to this forum/thread, but personally I'd find an interview more fitting.

Alice Artzt's email address is available via youtube.

What do you think?

-- peluche

kestimones

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by kestimones » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:58 pm

really really helpful
thanks a lot
kestimones

googee52

Re: The Ida Presti right hand technique for guitar - Alice Artzt

Post by googee52 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:38 pm

Alice's explanation of the mechanics has been so helpful - I've been playing with an almost flat wrist and sure enough had problems with hitting the adjacent string. a slight bending of the wrist, bringing the knuckles so they are above the string to be played makes that problem go away.

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