Musician or Player?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Lovemyguitar
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Lovemyguitar » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:13 pm

Wuuthrad wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:07 am
...Quite interesting, I had never heard this before about Bream's early years, and it's not at all how he describes his life! ...
I know, that was my point. There are many facets of Bream's life (all of which have been publicly published, in various books and interviews with him and/or others who know him), but which Bream himself often chooses to leave out -- or downplay, gloss-over, etc. -- when he chats off-handedly about himself. The more that one learns of him (through the aforementioned sources), the more it becomes clear that his "public persona" does not always reflect the depth and complexity of his knowledge and skills, etc..

Incidentally, Tony Palmer's book JB: A Life on the Road, and Stuart Button's book, JB: The Foundations of a Musical Career, both provide a bit more insight and info about Bream than does his (highly entertaining) "My Life in Music" DVD. If you've not read them and are interested in Bream, I highly recommend them.

Wuuthrad
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Wuuthrad » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:00 am

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:13 pm
Wuuthrad wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:07 am
...Quite interesting, I had never heard this before about Bream's early years, and it's not at all how he describes his life! ...
I know, that was my point. There are many facets of Bream's life (all of which have been publicly published, in various books and interviews with him and/or others who know him), but which Bream himself often chooses to leave out -- or downplay, gloss-over, etc. -- when he chats off-handedly about himself. The more that one learns of him (through the aforementioned sources), the more it becomes clear that his "public persona" does not always reflect the depth and complexity of his knowledge and skills, etc..

Incidentally, Tony Palmer's book JB: A Life on the Road, and Stuart Button's book, JB: The Foundations of a Musical Career, both provide a bit more insight and info about Bream than does his (highly entertaining) "My Life in Music" DVD. If you've not read them and are interested in Bream, I highly recommend them.


Bream is probably my last guitar hero, and if I can even say that anymore about anyone, I suppose I must give him that credit!

I do have a copy of Life on the Road and look forward to reading Button's book, and wasn't aware of it till you mentioned it- thank you very much!

Im a big fan of Bream and all that he's done for guitar music in a historical context and even moreso what he's done to advance guitar music into the 20th Century and beyond. His album 20th Century Guitar is one of my all time favorites of any genre, and probably only second to his Baroque Guitar, which ranks as my favorite Classical Guitar album.

That being said, I'm still looking for video or audio of Laura Snowden's Bream Trust performance at Wigmore in 2017 at which she debuted Mustonen's 2nd guitar Concerto, which appears fascinating by description, but according to the publisher Schott Music is still in the works, the last time I checked anyway.
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

jscott

Re: Musician or Player?

Post by jscott » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:48 pm

"How much formal training did Bream have? did he study theory at university?" Just to be clear, I asked that as a real question, not a rhetorical one.

Lovemyguitar
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Lovemyguitar » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:24 pm

jscott wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:48 pm
"How much formal training did Bream have? did he study theory at university?" Just to be clear, I asked that as a real question, not a rhetorical one.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your question. However, you now have an answer! Cheers!

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David Gutowski
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by David Gutowski » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:53 am

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if someone already talked about this.

I read an article recently where they are doing research and in the beginning stages of programming robots to play cg. I wonder how good they would be and if a robot sounds really good what would you call them? Could a robot be considered a musician? Let's say the robot could be programed to play as good as David Russell. Would the robot be a "player" or "musician?"

Which would lead to the question: do you have to be human to be a musician? Would people pay to see and listen to a robot playing cg? Of course, you could dress up the robot in regular clothes and maybe attach a face; no need to make it look mechanical and you could close your eyes and listen...but would it be a musician?

So...maybe it's a human thing. Maybe it's more than just listening and watching someone play cg. In Zen Guitar, playing one note well is considered and talked about. Could you call yourself a musician, with all that it entails, and play only one note? It's my belief you can...but only if you're human.

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Wuuthrad
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Wuuthrad » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:09 am

jscott wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:48 pm
"How much formal training did Bream have? did he study theory at university?" Just to be clear, I asked that as a real question, not a rhetorical one.
Was your question not answered?
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

jscott

Re: Musician or Player?

Post by jscott » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:30 pm

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:24 pm
jscott wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:48 pm
"How much formal training did Bream have? did he study theory at university?" Just to be clear, I asked that as a real question, not a rhetorical one.
livemyguitar: Sorry if I misinterpreted your question. However, you now have an answer! Cheers!
and now yours is as well.

Rognvald
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:24 pm

"I read an article recently where they are doing research and in the beginning stages of programming robots to play cg. I wonder how good they would be and if a robot sounds really good what would you call them? " David Gutkowski


Hi, David,
Interesting question! My reply is that many CG's I have heard play ARE robots and it has nothing to do with being human. Music is a discipline, not unlike carpentry, for example, that needs to be mastered in all its facets. But, the job of the musician is to take those mechanical skills and give them a human element, a personality where you combine the elements of craft with a personal voice that places a unique signature on your playing . . . not an amorphous, ambiguous, unidentifiable succession of notes. But, perhaps we need to factor a third element . . . the Artist, who has the ability to master the craft and create a unique voice which perhaps many good musicians have not been able to accomplish. My personal opinion is that many less technically proficient players play more musically that those who have been honed in our worlds academic music programs. I have played with many robots in my life and have had the good fortune to play with many fine musicians/artists. For me, if you don't have a unique musical voice, you might as well play Scrabble for a hobby. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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David Gutowski
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by David Gutowski » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:42 am

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:24 pm
For me, if you don't have a unique musical voice
Thanks for that Rognvald...I added it to my practice log that I try to read everyday before I start my practice. A" unique musical voice" is very important and we should all strive for it regardless of our playing level. Something else that should go along with it is an understanding that our emotions and mood can play a big role in how we sound. There are times of great joy and sadness or even loneliness we experience before or during our playing that influences how we express the piece...that's where a robot will never compete with human playing. And I agree, good technique will expand the range of our expression or "musical voice." But good technique can still be limited or simple...at least that's what I keep telling myself!

Thanks again,

Onenote
Guitralchemist,
David :fume:
3 hard things for humans: dentist visit, public speaking, offering forgiveness.

Muse: chg pitch measure rhym feel tempo improvise melody harmonize arpeggios stucco your legato & practice

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Tonit
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Tonit » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:52 pm

Hi Rognvald,
I have played with many robots in my life and have had the good fortune to play with many fine musicians/artists. For me, if you don't have a unique musical voice, you might as well play Scrabble for a hobby.
I agree big time. But (as always the case) I have given quite a few inspirations from robotic noises like the guiding sound at a pedesterian crossing guiding visually impaireds, or printer working to spit out some generally un-musical materials. We don't have to and cannot be a tone generating robots but we still can give a human element to anything around us, including our instruments.

In my pure hobby department of photography, there has long been a discussion going on and on, as to whether photography should be included in fine arts or else. It is surely different from paintings using oil or water or acrylic, but we could find some art in it nevertheless, provided there is any intended artistic message in it as have been designed by the photographer.

While any camera or even our phones can be our expressive means like brushes and paints we should first be an artist if that is the name of the game instead of recording our daughter's piano concert or else. In a sense we can all possibly (and possibly for the benefit of doubt) be an artist within our spirit, and make anything our means to express ourselves if we are not that picky.

While you might have a different take on this, I think this could also apply to music: we should first be a musician committed to express before being a player after all. And we are in fact all musicians more or less, by the time we have developped an urge to express, or to play for our own or for family or any other kind of audience. So the brighter side's life is, we inevitably are heading along the musician way, leaving no point to discuss whether the musicianship is there or not, as we all have one, young, old, big, small, sad, happy and all the other forms that is coming in.

This might be reberious by the definition of the term "classical", but I sincerely hope is true to everyone.
Last edited by Tonit on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rognvald
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:47 pm

" In a sense we can all possibly (and possibly for the benefit of doubt) be an artist within our spirit, and make anything our means to express ourselves if we are not that picky." Tonit

Hi, Tonit,
Well said and exactly my point. We, humans, have the potential to be "sensoriums" in every aspect of our lives. From the time we get out of bed in the morning until we go to sleep at night, we have the potential to experience the fullness of life that surrounds our every waking moment. Being an "artist" is a well-abused term. Popular musicians use this term with the greatest degree of abuse when three-chord guitarists in funky dress throw the term "artist" around like a frisbee in a dog park . . . devaluing its meaning. However, on their limited level, perhaps, they are doing the best they can do given their talents and are making an attempt to experience the world around them on their personal level. And, this is the point. We cannot all be a Roland Dyens, Fabio Zanon or Eduardo Fernandez but we can think of what we do-- not in a gymnastic perspective of simply getting the notes right but rather-- making those notes, if even imperfect, say something to the listener. Put your signature on your music the same way you sign your name . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Tonit
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Tonit » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:39 pm

HI Rognvald,
And, this is the point. We cannot all be a Roland Dyens, Fabio Zanon or Eduardo Fernandez but we can think of what we do-- not in a gymnastic perspective of simply getting the notes right but rather-- making those notes, if even imperfect, say something to the listener. Put your signature on your music the same way you sign your name.
I agree. And I further suggest that we can be an artist all the same even with our dependency, most likely partial and possibly full, on the instrumentally skillfull others performing our "arts". This is apparently true to the composers and arrangers vast majority of whom are not multi-instrumentalists writing for the instruments they cannot play the part they have written by themselves with the designated instruments. So and so, we cannot all be a Roland Dyens, Fabio Zanon or Eduardo Fernandez, but being without any, we can possibly be a Takemitsu or Tansmann or Tarrega.

But another facet there is that, we need a Roland Dyens, Fabio Zanon or Eduardo Fernandez to express, and inevitably need them to understand our arts, which in turn requires that virtuoso guitarst to be atrtistically fluent in the communication between us, and both in incoming and outgoing messages of our arts, we need them to read between the staves and see through the same in delivering the arts in a certain way that best makes sense to all of the parties. This calls for our day to day pushups on the top of the in-depth understanding of the art pieces that hopefully motivate us, and that we as players understand, enough to get down on rather mechanical day to day workouts.

As for me, my heart flips still the same, or even more I would say, simply with a note plucked by myself on a guitar after four decades, so that I have no problem going over the chores for a short while everyday.

musicbyandy
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by musicbyandy » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:28 pm

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:38 pm
You can be an excellent guitarist, but a poor musician. I am not sure if you can be a poor guitarist but an excellent musician...
I think that it is possible for a person to be a poor guitarist but an excellent musician. For example, I work with a person whom I would consider to be an excellent musician but I would consider this person to be a poor guitarist.

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