Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:57 pm

" Charlie Byrd and Pat Martino are in two different eras of Jazz. One can hear the modern influence of Bebop and modal harmony (once again George Russell) in Martino’s playing. If Byrd cut his teeth at the sametime as Martino the vocabulary would probably similar.' " D. Cass

O.k., D,
I probably could have provided a better example. How's this? Charlie Byrd vs. Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and Barney Kessel. All the same generation. Huge difference in creativity with nothing to do with the era since they are all contemporaries. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

D.Cass
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by D.Cass » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:36 pm

Is it huge differences in creativity or huge differences in musical views? Charlie Byrd was one of the pioneeers of bringing Brazilian styles to mainstream jazz. Not mention most Byrd’s playing was chord based unlike the linear single line style of the others. More like George Van Epps and Carl Kress. Sure, on the surface level many would say the others are more “creative”, but Byrd did bring his own approach and influences to the table that is different than the others. To quote Miles Davis “ Last thing I want hear another f*@?ing cliche”

Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:11 pm

"Is it huge differences in creativity or huge differences in musical views?" D.Cass


Hi, D,
I think it is the former rather than the latter. A musician can have very eclectic views and still be an unimaginative person. The fact that Byrd played Bossa has nothing to do with his creativity . . . only his musical interests. And, it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman. However, I will restate that Byrd was a competent musician but a "lame" improviser when compared to the previously mentioned Montgomery, Pass, and Kessel. Thanks for the interesting replies. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

musicbyandy
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by musicbyandy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:08 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:37 pm
When we read through the many discussions on CGF, we see many topics dealing with technique, strings, repertoire, and guitars. However, the subject of creativity should be at the top of the list....What do you think? Playing again . . . Rognvald
I don't think anything should be anything without a specific objective. I don't think creativity should be at the top of the list if your objective is to put creativity at the bottom of your list.

If you wish to create discussions using creativity as a topic, I encourage you to make create discussions using creativity as a topic. If I see a discussion using creativity as a topic, I promise you that I will read some of the discussion and that I will create and submit a response.

VasquezBob
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by VasquezBob » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:26 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:37 pm
When we read through the many discussions on CGF, we see many topics dealing with technique, strings, repertoire, and guitars. However, the subject of creativity should be at the top of the list. Learning to play a musical instrument is much like learning to play a sport. We must have an interest; we need to learn the rules; we must understand and practice the technique and finally, we must play the game(performance). However, unlike a sport, Music is human expression and how we say things musically determines who we are as a performer and as a human being. It is true that it is difficult to be "creative" when you're struggling with technique and your hands won't go where you want them to go but even as a beginning student, an attempt should be made to play a piece musically and with your name on it. When we study a piece of music, how many among us(after getting the fingers to go where we want them to go) attempt to understand what the composer wanted to say, at what tempo the piece feels most natural and how it would sound if we sang the piece aloud? But is this creativity or rather the proper way to study music? For me, creativity is the most important aspect of performance and it far outweighs technique in every aspect. As human beings, we all have a voice and if you cannot communicate your unique voice, you have failed as a musician. The creative experience is to perform music leaving no stone unturned, no thought unresolved, no emotion unexplored. What do you think? Playing again . . . Rognvald
I really like this post; well said. Bob

VasquezBob
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by VasquezBob » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm

Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:51 pm
I think historically, creativity was suppressed by militaristic teachers. In fact, my classroom teacher, Ben Barron, a protege of Rey de la Torre, said that his first set of teachers told him NOT to compose anything because it takes decades to become good enough to compose anything, and furthermore, that any valuable musical ideas have already been thought up and added to compositions, so there is no point. Enter Rey de la Torre, who encourages interpretation, composition, exploration, etc. Del Torre also promoted the idea that you must achieve excellent tone, clarity, and precision in your playing skills, but after that, there are many valid ways to play a piece and/or interpret it.

Needless to say, I was modifying pieces from day 1 - quite literally. Of course, I was a rocker since the 70's prior to taking up classical, so I'm not just some fumbling newbie. Ben would say things like, "That interpretation is bold." He primary concern is that I'm consciously playing what I intend, if not, it's really unconscious errors.

I would also extend creativity to technique and execution. We all must determine a method that works for our own personal anatomy, and ability. There is no such thing as "one size fits all." So you must have a sense of creativity to arrive at the most optimal technique that works for you personally.
Another great post. Thanks, Bob

musicbyandy
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by musicbyandy » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:57 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:11 pm
And, it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.
I don't understand what you mean by it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.

Charlie Byrd and Stan Getz are both credited on the cover of "Jazz Samba" (which is an album). "Desafinado" wasn't followed by "Jazz Samba", "Desafinado" is track one from "Jazz Samba".

As I understand, the band on "Jazz Samba" is Charlie Byrd's trio and Charlie Byrd was the leader of the band.

I have read in multiple historical accounts that Charlie Byrd travelled to Brazil to study music on a United States government grant. I would say that to some extent jazz history credits Charlie Byrd as a person who "brought Latin/Bossa to Jazz".

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georgemarousi
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by georgemarousi » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:08 pm

Unfortunately I do not see much creativity at the average C. Guitarist, rather than strive for a flawless performance at first, and secondly musicality for some ( I find the second much more important - unlike the majority ) .

Personally I feel more like an artist, so I d like to focus more on creativity ( acoustic guitar is in the game too ) rather than focusing on a millionth flawless performance of a popular CG transcription :)
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Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:59 pm

musicbyandy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:57 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:11 pm
And, it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.
I don't understand what you mean by it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.

Charlie Byrd and Stan Getz are both credited on the cover of "Jazz Samba" (which is an album). "Desafinado" wasn't followed by "Jazz Samba", "Desafinado" is track one from "Jazz Samba".

As I understand, the band on "Jazz Samba" is Charlie Byrd's trio and Charlie Byrd was the leader of the band.

I have read in multiple historical accounts that Charlie Byrd travelled to Brazil to study music on a United States government grant. I would say that to some extent jazz history credits Charlie Byrd as a person who "brought Latin/Bossa to Jazz".
Hi, Andy,
It didn't matter whose group it was . . . it was the tenor playing of Stan Getz and HIS "Latin Sound" that captivated the listening audience and popularized the movement which by no means was non-existent among music aficionados. No one knew(general listenership) who the guitarist was in the group. Everyone knew who the saxophonist was --Stan Getz. Here's a great article in "Jazz Times" that gives a brief overview of the movement. And, to your point-- to infer that Charlie Byrd played no part in the movement would be incorrect but it was Getz who created the rage of "Bossa" for most avid Jazz listeners as well as the general public. Playing again . . . Rognvald
https://jazztimes.com/features/latin-ja ... tin-tinge/
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:06 pm

georgemarousi wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:08 pm
Unfortunately I do not see much creativity at the average C. Guitarist, rather than strive for a flawless performance at first, and secondly musicality for some ( I find the second much more important - unlike the majority ) .

Personally I feel more like an artist, so I d like to focus more on creativity ( acoustic guitar is in the game too ) rather than focusing on a millionth flawless performance of a popular CG transcription :)

I like your statement, George. This is a major conceptual difference among most CG's. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

musicbyandy
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by musicbyandy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:13 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:59 pm
musicbyandy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:57 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:11 pm
And, it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.
I don't understand what you mean by it wasn't Byrd who Jazz history credits with bringing Latin/Bossa to Jazz but rather tenor saxophonist Stan Getz with his 1962 hit "Jazz Samba" followed by "Desafinado" and then his 1964 hit "Girl from Ipanema." Getz was always the leader of the band . . . Byrd was a sideman.

Charlie Byrd and Stan Getz are both credited on the cover of "Jazz Samba" (which is an album). "Desafinado" wasn't followed by "Jazz Samba", "Desafinado" is track one from "Jazz Samba".

As I understand, the band on "Jazz Samba" is Charlie Byrd's trio and Charlie Byrd was the leader of the band.

I have read in multiple historical accounts that Charlie Byrd travelled to Brazil to study music on a United States government grant. I would say that to some extent jazz history credits Charlie Byrd as a person who "brought Latin/Bossa to Jazz".
Hi, Andy,
It didn't matter whose group it was . . . it was the tenor playing of Stan Getz and HIS "Latin Sound" that captivated the listening audience and popularized the movement which by no means was non-existent among music aficionados. No one knew(general listenership) who the guitarist was in the group. Everyone knew who the saxophonist was --Stan Getz. Here's a great article in "Jazz Times" that gives a brief overview of the movement. And, to your point-- to infer that Charlie Byrd played no part in the movement would be incorrect but it was Getz who created the rage of "Bossa" for most avid Jazz listeners as well as the general public. Playing again . . . Rognvald
https://jazztimes.com/features/latin-ja ... tin-tinge/
Thank for you replying to my message. Can you elaborate on what you mean by Stan Getz' "Latin Sound"?

Considering that Charlie Byrd's name appears on the cover of "Jazz Samba", I don't believe, "No one knew (general listenership) who the guitarist was in the group." I think I might not know exactly what you mean by "general listenership", admittedly, I've never before read or heard the term "general listenership". I am interpreting "no one" to mean literally not a single person.

I would guess that as a recording artist Stan Getz sold more records than Charlie Byrd has sold as a recording artist. I would guess that since 1962 to today Stan Getz, as a recording and performing artist, has been consistently known by more people than Charlie Byrd, as a recording and performing artist. I don't think that I can prove that since 1962 to today Stan Getz, as a recording and performing artist, has been consistently known by more people than Charlie Byrd, as a recording and performing artist.

When I teach Jazz History, I teach about the influence that Charlie Byrd had on Latin Jazz.

Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:45 pm

"When I teach Jazz History, I teach about the influence that Charlie Byrd had on Latin Jazz." Andy


Hi, Andy,
I suppose it would be a good idea to also include Getz since it was his sound that popularized the Latin sound among the general public. I think as a teacher it would give your students a more complete picture of the genesis of the movement. However, it was Getz's tenor sax that enraptured Jazz's devotees . . .not Byrd's guitar. There's no way to get around that fact. But, I would not argue that Bryd had no influence on the movement . . . that would be factually incorrect. Playing again . . . including guitar Bossa . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

musicbyandy
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by musicbyandy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:04 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:45 pm
"When I teach Jazz History, I teach about the influence that Charlie Byrd had on Latin Jazz." Andy


Hi, Andy,
I suppose it would be a good idea to also include Getz since it was his sound that popularized the Latin sound among the general public. I think as a teacher it would give your students a more complete picture of the genesis of the movement. However, it was Getz's tenor sax that enraptured Jazz's devotees . . .not Byrd's guitar. There's no way to get around that fact. But, I would not argue that Bryd had no influence on the movement . . . that would be factually incorrect. Playing again . . . including guitar Bossa . . . Rognvald
I always include Stan Getz when teaching about Latin Jazz.

On Saturday night, I attended a jam session that included "Girl from Ipanema". A musician at the jam commented on Stan Getz, Tom Jobim and Astrud Gilberto. I made a comment about Joao Gilberto. The musician asked, "Who is Joao Gilberto?". I answered that Joao Gilberto is one of the two singers of "Girl from Ipanema" and is the Gilberto in the name of the album "Getz/Gilberto". The musician responded, "I've never heard of Joao Gilberto."

Rognvald
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Rognvald » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:42 pm

" I made a comment about Joao Gilberto. The musician asked, "Who is Joao Gilberto?". I answered that Joao Gilberto is one of the two singers of "Girl from Ipanema" and is the Gilberto in the name of the album "Getz/Gilberto". The musician responded, "I've never heard of Joao Gilberto."" Andy

Well, Andy . . . some of us may play well but may not necessarily be the sharpest blade in the knife block. Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. Love Bossa!!
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Dave Stott
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Re: Creativity and the Classical Guitarist

Post by Dave Stott » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:04 pm

I absolutely love Charlies Byrd & Joe Pass. Charlie's playing is indeed chord based and his improvisational style is completely different than Joe Pass.

Joe's soloing was also chord based, but he knew chord lines and melody notes almost anywhere on the fret board to the point where it was instinctive without any thought.

Jimmy Bruno tells a story about he and a group of jazz musicians sitting in Joe Pass's kitchen. Joe was playing his guitar told them that he'd show them anything. When asked about recent series of notes he played. Joe couldn't remember what he had just played

2 great CD's from Joe Pass are one's where he played a nylon string guitar. They are; "Songs for Ellen: & "Unforgettable"

Dave
Rognvald wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:57 pm
How's this? Charlie Byrd vs. Joe Pass, and Barney Kessel. All the same generation. Huge difference in creativity with nothing to do with the era since they are all contemporaries. Playing again . . . Rognvald
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