Starting Jazz Guitar

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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jm_andrade
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by jm_andrade » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Hi Tonit,

Many thanks for your well detailed message. It's much appreciated.

Regards,
JM

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Marshall Dixon » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:08 pm

Don Latarski is (was?) a professor of music at the University of Oregon. He has written a number of books on the subject of jazz. You can find out about them from his website.

http://donlatarski.com/books.php

Rognvald
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:35 pm

Hi, Helsair,
I want this reply to be taken with all respect intended and as a realistic answer to your question. Do you have 30 years to listen, study, play and then be prepared to realize you'll never play Jazz because it's not in your "Soul?" If you're o.k. with that . . . go for it! Playing again . . . Rognvald
Here's the incomparable trumpeter Chet Baker in one of his last performances in Tokyo before his tragic death playing the Jazz Standard "For All We Know."
You can't teach this stuff! Playing again . . .Rognvald

"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

razz
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by razz » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:53 pm

Here is one more video suggestion. Charlie Byrd used a classical guitar for jazz.
The video is called "Contemporary Acoustic Jazz Guitar". You should be able to find it on YouTube.
Last edited by razz on Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RJVB
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:46 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:35 pm
You can't teach this stuff!
Oh yes you can, but it tends to get very academic quickly (or maybe I'm extrapolating from the few MOOCs I've tried to follow and the fact I find a lot of jazz styles way too academic to my taste).

For the easier-listening variants (I'm thinking Django-like styles) there probably isn't too much to teach, but lots to learn ... from playing with others who already have the mojo and are used to passing it on. That could of course take a workshop form, led by a "mentor" (an IMHO more appropriate term you'll often hear used by accomplished players, at least in the blues).
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:02 pm

RJVB wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:46 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:35 pm
You can't teach this stuff!
Oh yes you can, but it tends to get very academic quickly (or maybe I'm extrapolating from the few MOOCs I've tried to follow and the fact I find a lot of jazz styles way too academic to my taste).

For the easier-listening variants (I'm thinking Django-like styles) there probably isn't too much to teach, but lots to learn ... from playing with others who already have the mojo and are used to passing it on. That could of course take a workshop form, led by a "mentor" (an IMHO more appropriate term you'll often hear used by accomplished players, at least in the blues).
Hi, RJ,
The best learning experience is on the job working with other musicians. However, to get there . . .you have to have the chops to be a performer. As a saxophone player, I had the great experience and pleasure to play with an outstanding guitarist for a year who opened my head to many musical concepts and ideas. This is also one of the reasons why, as a school, the Berklee School of Jazz has been such a fertile breeding ground for stellar young musicians. It is a practical trade school of theory and practice on a very high level. However, you need outstanding chops and recommendations to even get accepted. For most of us mortals in the 60's/70's, we hit the road. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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RJVB
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:02 am

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:02 pm
The best learning experience is on the job working with other musicians. However, to get there . . .you have to have the chops to be a performer.
Yep. To me that translates to:
1) have some form of predisposition/aptitude/giftedness to be a musician
2) study with a teacher to learn the basics
3) start playing with others as soon as you can (things like Music Minus One can be a substitute up to a certain point)
4) keep studying with different teachers at least until you've learned how to teach yourself
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
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Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:10 pm

RJVB wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:02 am
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:02 pm
The best learning experience is on the job working with other musicians. However, to get there . . .you have to have the chops to be a performer.
Yep. To me that translates to:
1) have some form of predisposition/aptitude/giftedness to be a musician
2) study with a teacher to learn the basics
3) start playing with others as soon as you can (things like Music Minus One can be a substitute up to a certain point)
4) keep studying with different teachers at least until you've learned how to teach yourself
You took the words out of my mouth, RJ! No. 3 is especially important and for those who cannot connect easily with other musicians, the Music Minus One is a great teaching/learning tool. Also, in regards to No. 4, similar to automobiles, musicians occasionally need tune-ups and in the past, I have studied with teachers(both Classical and Jazz) for short periods when I felt I needed a critical ear. The final element, however, is play, play, play. There's no substitute for time on your instrument. Great reply, RJ! Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

marvluse

Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by marvluse » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:16 am

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:10 pm
RJVB wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:02 am
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:02 pm
The best learning experience is on the job working with other musicians. However, to get there . . .you have to have the chops to be a performer.
Yep. To me that translates to:
1) have some form of predisposition/aptitude/giftedness to be a musician
2) study with a teacher to learn the basics
3) start playing with others as soon as you can (things like Music Minus One can be a substitute up to a certain point)
4) keep studying with different teachers at least until you've learned how to teach yourself
You took the words out of my mouth, RJ! No. 3 is especially important and for those who cannot connect easily with other musicians, the Music Minus One is a great teaching/learning tool. Also, in regards to No. 4, similar to automobiles, musicians occasionally need tune-ups and in the past, I have studied with teachers(both Classical and Jazz) for short periods when I felt I needed a critical ear. The final element, however, is play, play, play. There's no substitute for time on your instrument. Great reply, RJ! Playing again . . . Rognvald
Well, I would qualify a lot of this. For instance, using myself as an example, I had no "predisposition/aptitude/giftedness" for music, other than a love for it and a love for the classical guitar. I'm a stubborn cuss, and busted my butt to get reasonably good at it. For perhaps the first 5 years of my career I was self taught, no teacher. I read methods by Shearer and Roche and others, but I was on my own.

I suppose it was a rocky start, but start it was. And eventually I studied with the likes of Oscar Ghiglia and Eliot Fisk. I think that was profitable, but in retrospect I feel it was not conscious knowledge that I gleaned, but rather more subliminal subtleties.

I think ensemble playing is very important, but it is something the lone, struggling musician may have little access to. There is a certain discipline necessary to play with others that is entirely optional when playing alone.

As for Jazz, to me it is more philosophy than music. Many of the "classical" jazz works I find boring. What is interesting and inspiring is the level of improvisation utilized, and that can be found and employed in any musical niche. For instance, I am profoundly impressed by the improvisational skills of the original Allman Brothers band (1969-1971). Indeed, many of their best recorded works could be characterized as modern Jazz, but they excelled at just about every other genre of so-called "rock" or "pop"music. As an example I would offer this, a true modern jazz masterpiece (IMHO)...

Look for "The Allman Brothers Band with Duane - In Memory of Elizabeth Reed - Fillmore East - 09/23/1970" on YouTube. (Mod edit).

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:02 am

marvluse wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:16 am
Well, I would qualify a lot of this. For instance, using myself as an example, I had no "predisposition/aptitude/giftedness" for music, other than a love for it and a love for the classical guitar.
Excuse me to break your bubble ;), but if you ended up studying with some "the likes of" teachers you must have had some form of predisposition. Which is exactly what I said one needs. That talent is really something that is hard to qualify (as with any), and it can take insistent prodding and a lot of trial + error to discover yours.

And there's also a chicken/egg aspect to it, somewhere.
I think that was profitable, but in retrospect I feel it was not conscious knowledge that I gleaned, but rather more subliminal subtleties.
That sounds perfectly normal, and it also means they had good foundations to work with.
There is a certain discipline necessary to play with others that is entirely optional when playing alone.
And that is exactly what makes it so crucial!
As an example: if you look at methods to learn how to solo-play the blues, jazz or even "fingerstyle" on guitar you will notice that most if not all point out how important it is to be a good rythm guitarist first. As someone said to me the other day: remember, in the end to goal is to make 'em get up and dancing.
Somewhere there is an interview with Bob Brozeman where he illustrates how small the step is from playing what we'd call an obstinato bass (a blues bass in his case) to making music: just play a few notes from a compatible chords between the bass notes when the tension has become too much.
As for Jazz, to me it is more philosophy than music. Many of the "classical" jazz works I find boring.
That makes two of us...! Curiously you might expect that I'd find much acoustic delta and country blues boring too because there is so little going on in a way (my wife would say there's no melody, nor a head, nor a tail), but I can have that music playing almost all day long. Esp. if it's by someone who never plays the same song the same twice, like Doug Macleod.

I'm convinced that similar improvisational skills existed in Western music long before blues or jazz existed, it was just known under a different name (playing diminutions, or cadenzas, or "die Kunst der Fuge" ;)).
BTW, if I listen to Art Tatum for instance I often would be willing to believe I were listening to classical music.
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:24 pm

" I had no "predisposition/aptitude/giftedness" for music . . . And eventually I studied with the likes of Oscar Ghiglia and Eliot Fisk." Marvluse

Hi, Marv,
This, of course, is patently impossible since teachers on this level only take highly advanced students with great musical aptitude. They would never waste their time with limited players since their time is too valuable. I would like to think you're, perhaps, being modest, but I interpret your remarks as somewhat disingenuous and certainly misleading for those who study any instrument. In regards to the Allman Brothers, if this is Jazz, then I have been sadly misled for the last 50 plus years as a musician and serious listener of Jazz Music. The lame, cliche improvisations and camp sound in the video remind me of another pretender--Carlos Santana-- the one hit wonder of "Black Magic Woman" fame. No serious Jazz musician would ever call this music Jazz. As a final remark, I want my remarks to be taken without animus towards you but rather as a strong rebuttal to what I believe is a very misleading post on two counts. If you want to talk about Jazz influenced popular musicians, you would feature Blood, Sweat and Tears and Tower of Power who were comprised of serious Jazz musicians who crossed over to popular music for a time. Here's David Clayton Thomas of Blood, Sweat, and Tears singing the old Billie Holiday Jazz classic "God Bless the Child" with the incredible Jazz arrangement played by the band. At 3:08, you'll hear the musicians "stretch out"--this is why this was such a great crossover band. Playing again . . . Rognvald




P.S. And, to Marv, I want this to be a discussion of music and NOT descend into anything else since the difference between the Allman Brothers and Blood, Sweat and Tears/Tower of Power in musicianship and style is great.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:41 am

The beginning of that interpretation sits somewhere between big-band/swing and Motown gospel/soul, and at 3.08 I'm more reminded of some kind of latin music than of jazz. Though one does wonder if Stan Getz is among the players and further ahead (5min) ... is that Charlie Musselwhite :) ?

Did you say fusion, or is this something between fission and evolution, showing how so many of these styles evolved from each other (think how rock is based in blues)? ;)
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:09 pm

RJVB wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:41 am
The beginning of that interpretation sits somewhere between big-band/swing and Motown gospel/soul, and at 3.08 I'm more reminded of some kind of latin music than of jazz. Though one does wonder if Stan Getz is among the players and further ahead (5min) ... is that Charlie Musselwhite :) ?

Did you say fusion, or is this something between fission and evolution, showing how so many of these styles evolved from each other (think how rock is based in blues)? ;)

Hi, RJ,
My point in referring to the former BS and T was not to explain/define their music, per se, but rather to contrast their serious Jazz-Based sound/charts played by solid, trained Jazz musicians with that of The Allman Brothers--"self-taught Southern rockers" whose music, in my opinion, is nothing even close to Jazz--irrespective of the labels used about them by some. If the future of Jazz lays with non-formally trained musicians who cannot read music or understand it even on a basic theoretical level(as suggested by Marvluse), then, Jazz, as we know it, will be dead in a short period of time as it descends into the camp, predictable music of the masses. And, the complexity of Jazz as a serious Art form is self-evident to many Classical players who try to dabble in this music and fall flat on their faces as the genre, in my opinion, requires more than technique and theory but also a feel for the music that, in my opinion, cannot be learned but comes from a mixture of one's music training and a special creative mind that is, in my opinion, both genetic and based on one's ontological experience of life. The pathetic attempts of Yo Yo Ma in Bossa/Jazz and Luciano Pavoratti singing with James Brown(truly sad), to name a few, are self-evident. In fact, a recent study by the Max Planck Institue for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences has found that the brains of Jazz and Classical musicians work differently. Jazz musicians have known this forever. I hope I have made this clear. Thanks for your reply. Playing again . . . Rognvald
https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/ja ... ns-brains/

P.S. Sorry, I couldn't resist . . . here's the ego-maniacal Pavoratti with dyed hair and beard singing with James Brown . . . is it beautiful as some have commented or is it a tragic example of unfettered egomania? It's your call!
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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RJVB
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:36 pm

I couldn't agree more with your remarks about YYM and LP. However I have some serious doubts about them as musicians in general (as opposed to just very good showbizmen, basically in the same category as André Rieu) ... and I feel we might agree somewhat less about that. In their "defense", I know both musicians and scientists who in a way become victims of their own success and in some sort of perpetual quest to keep renewing themselves end up in styles/disciplines where they really have nothing to add but just more repetition of themselves (possibly acting a bit even crazier if that were possible)...

For some reason I'm now reminded of Jessy Norman singing the Marseillaise clad in a French flag (yet you'd think she should have soul in her veins).

I'm not sure if I fully agree with your assessment about what it takes to play jazz. Of course you have to have feeling for it, but I won't believe you cannot develop that even if no one in your family could ever appreciate a single note of any kind of music (heh, just like former USO double-bassist Julien Coco once told me I have "a n***** soul" [his words!] while there isn't a single drop of black blood in my ancestry ;)).
I'm more willing to believe that this sort of thing could limit how well you can play the less accessible forms of jazz (just like not everyone -if anyone- can make Poulenc or Stockhausen sound catchy instead of a boring dodekaphonic mass of notes O:-) ).

EDIT:
> it descends into the camp, predictable music of the masses.

Hmmm, do you think the masses would hear the difference between predictable music, and music that just sounds that way? ;)
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:21 pm

"Hmmm, do you think the masses would hear the difference between predictable music, and music that just sounds that way? ;)" RJVB


Hi, RJ
I have never concerned myself with the "masses" other than to avoid them at all costs. . . which, at times, can be very difficult and injurious to your soul. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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