Starting Jazz Guitar

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
davebones
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by davebones » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:17 pm

I would highly recommend The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick, who aside from being a formidable jazz guitarist, is professor of jazz guitar at Berklee College of Music. Also check out Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel. Jamey Aebersold has several play along cds featuring the works of players like Wes Montgomery. Vic Juris has a great book and CD, Inside/Outside, which features his original jazz guitar solos. Subscribe to Just Jazz Guitar, which is always loaded with charts to play as well as other jazz guitar news.Finally, the approach to the fret board is heavily reliant on learning movable shapes. Finding a mentor who could demo this would greatly assist your progress. Have fun!
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Bill Kane
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Bill Kane » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:29 pm

Earl klugh is a jazz artist ( defies my further classification) who plays nylon guitar and some beautiful pieces that are quite accessible to those in the classical guitar genre. Look up “This Time” and “Angelina” on YouTube. The scores are available from Francois DeLuc.
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by randalljazz » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:31 am

davebones wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:17 pm
I would highly recommend The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick, who aside from being a formidable jazz guitarist, is professor of jazz guitar at Berklee College of Music. Also check out Building a Jazz Vocabulary by Mike Steinel. Jamey Aebersold has several play along cds featuring the works of players like Wes Montgomery. Vic Juris has a great book and CD, Inside/Outside, which features his original jazz guitar solos. Subscribe to Just Jazz Guitar, which is always loaded with charts to play as well as other jazz guitar news.Finally, the approach to the fret board is heavily reliant on learning movable shapes. Finding a mentor who could demo this would greatly assist your progress. Have fun!
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Rognvald
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:28 pm

nameisbill wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:29 pm
Earl klugh is a jazz artist ( defies my further classification) who plays nylon guitar and some beautiful pieces that are quite accessible to those in the classical guitar genre. Look up “This Time” and “Angelina” on YouTube. The scores are available from Francois DeLuc.


Whatever happened to Earl? I haven't heard from him musically in a long time? The last time I'd listened to him, he was playing that "Smooth Jazz" garbage. Playing again . . . Rognvald


This will find it on youtube: Earl Klugh - Whispers And Promises
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:35 pm

I can almost see that kind of TV images that music could accompany. Maybe he realised he can make more money writing background music for such purposes; if I understood your posts correctly that would have made him fall off your radar? ;)
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Bill Kane
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Bill Kane » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:51 pm

Earl Klugh’s Angelina is one of my favourites and of course Cast your Fate to the Wind.
Last edited by Bill Kane on Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:44 pm

RJVB wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:35 pm
I can almost see that kind of TV images that music could accompany. Maybe he realised he can make more money writing background music for such purposes; if I understood your posts correctly that would have made him fall off your radar? ;)

Yes, RJ,
George Benson certainly cashed in on "This Masquerade" and stayed with the R and B format for some time. Today, he's back again playing straight ahead Jazz with fewer commercial interludes. You can't blame him for not wanting to die a "poete maudit." Here are two sides of George. Playing again . . . Rognvald


Look for "George Benson singing "This Masquerade" on youtube.

Here's George playing straight ahead Jazz with the McCoy Tyner trio burning the barn with the Jazz standard "Stella by Starlight:

Look for "George Benson & McCoy Tyner Trio - Stella by Starlight"
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Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:26 am

Hi again,
Having seen a variety of jazz suggestions, I have an urge to address a matter most of the member body here would rather avoid.

There are roughly two limits of a broader jazz definition, one shared with pop and the other one with classical "contemporary" compositions, and oftentimes musicians enter from the pop side and trying to go through it towards the other side.

In the course of this journey, they tend to be more excited with newer musical devices, explore more towards the second Vienna school devices and so on and so forth.

I was one of them, entered from the pop side, and went through at the certain point of the contemporary devices. And I have noticed at some point that jazz (as we discuss here) traces mostly the wake of classical music. There are functional harmony, symmetric concepts, polytonals, impressionism, avangarde and so on and so forth, except that, few classical attempts have been made to improvise on that music whereas musicians tend to think jazz is about improvising, which is roughly correct.

So therefore, the classical criteria must be roughly applied to jazz: None would say Beethoven had been inferior to Bartok.

However, I have seen that, this is not the case in jazz oftentimes: when you play later Wes Montgomery style (i.e. the advent of Smooth Jazz so it's been said) while the other one plays Wayne Shoter (the jazz impressionism), the musicians almost always agree the other one is more "challenging", and even there may be a larger group of people saying Wes style is more "boring" than Wayne ones. I can tell, this is the myth that lets us get lost in jazz quite so often.

I was falsely taken in by the claim of this group of people. Having conceptually lerned and mastered to some extent thereafter, however, they are simply two different kinds of styles. Jazz appreciates what's new, while Wayne Shorter is as new as Wes Montgomery.

It can be said that, Jazz is not about which one is newer or older than the other, but about how to introduce new things to the old to avoid boredom among players and their audience.

Meanwhile, there have been so many Jazz musicians trying and experimenting different things already, it is increasingly difficult to introduce something new.

So while I could explore something new investing all of my time available, I would rather explore what and how I want to play within the existing jazz/pop/folkloric formats, so that I could have a little musical say (something to play) about any of the subjects (i.e. different styles or formats of jazz music).

This is relevant to some of the suggestions here as we would most likely see someone saying Earl Klugh is a Smooth Jazz artist playing for money and therefore is not worthy of listening or trying to learn, or at least they might claim Mick Goodrick being more of a jazz musician than Earl.

This is also related to the "Pat Metheny on Smooth Jazz" video, which the viewers broadly do not know the context. Pat specifically enraged against and blamed one single action of Kenny G: He released an album where Louis Armstrong's voice was superimposed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/16/arts ... ously.html

There was not only Pat Metheny but also were many other reputable Jazz performers being enraged against this Kenny G blasphemy (I dare say that) for commercial purposes.

So and so, it was not the entire "Smooth Jazz" community which was harshly criticized by Pat, but one single person who did the wrong and who happened to have been a representative figure of the music category for a while.

In fact there are many great musicians among Smooth Jazz artists, such as late Chuck Loeb (taught by Pat Metheny), Lee Ritenour, George Benson, and of course Earl Klugh. The list would be too long if I was going to name non guitarists among them.

Also noteworthy is: as I mentioned, it is said that Smooth Jazz can be traced back to the later Wes Montgomery works, and Pat Metheny said in some interviews that he was transcribing exclusively two Wes Montgomery records when he was 16 as far as I can recall. To back this up, some of Pat Metheny's phrasing is very similar to Wes' phrasing on his particular recordings.

All in all, IMPO you do not have to create anything new to be a jazz guitarist, but you have to be true to yourself, knowing what to say (play) in various formats of the music, or, you should know how you would like to use the given musical devices on the different styles of jazz/pop music, including Smooth Jazz.

It's rather long but I hope you read it through. Sorry should there be any typo or other linguistic error in this.

Cheers,

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:44 am

Rognvald wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:44 pm
George Benson certainly cashed in on "This Masquerade" and stayed with the R and B format for some time.
I dont really mind that kind of escapade, to be honest. R&B has seen its own share of great musicians.
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm

Wow, Tonit,
You've really set the table for a banquet! Let's start here when you say: "Meanwhile, there have been so many Jazz musicians trying and experimenting different things already, it is increasingly difficult to introduce something new. . . So while I could explore something new investing all of my time available, I would rather explore what and how I want to play within the existing jazz/pop/folkloric formats, so that I could have a little musical say (something to play) about any of the subjects (i.e. different styles or formats of jazz music)." (Tonit) Well, if your goal is to invent "something new," you'll miss the whole journey of an artist since your goal is not necessarily self-improvement but rather novelty. And you are correct to say that it is important to play what YOU want to play . . . not your next door neighbor. This is the only path to artistry and self-discovery. Secondly, you remark: "Also noteworthy is: as I mentioned, it is said that Smooth Jazz can be traced back to the later Wes Montgomery works, and Pat Metheny said in some interviews that he was transcribing exclusively two Wes Montgomery records when he was 16 as far as I can recall. To back this up, some of Pat Metheny's phrasing is very similar to Wes' phrasing on his particular recordings." (Tonit) This statement I would strongly dispute since Wes was not only a Jazz innovator during those early years and until his untimely death but his harmonic/melodic style had nothing to do with popular music and reaching out to the masses but was nonetheless popular among many who were not Jazz aficionados since he played many "popular songs". The fact that Metheney was influenced in some way by Wes as a young person does not draw a connection to "Smooth Jazz" and therefore, I see no familial connection with the artistry of Wes Montgomery and "Smooth Jazz"-- the watered down psychotropic music of the masses. Finally, when you say "All in all, IMPO you do not have to create anything new to be a jazz guitarist, but you have to be true to yourself, knowing what to say (play) in various formats of the music" (Tonit) I couldn't agree more. We, as musicians are not music boxes but are living, breathing human beings that should have a story to tell. What better way to tell it than through your music? Playing again . . . Rognvald
P.S. Thanks, T for the thoughtful post.
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by davebones » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:23 pm

One of the guiding ideas in jazz groups I have played in (as a trombonist) comes from Duke Ellington, who said "If it sounds good, it is good."
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:17 pm

Hi Rognvald,
Rognvald wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm
Secondly, you remark: "Also noteworthy is: as I mentioned, it is said that Smooth Jazz can be traced back to the later Wes Montgomery works, and Pat Metheny said in some interviews that he was transcribing exclusively two Wes Montgomery records when he was 16 as far as I can recall. To back this up, some of Pat Metheny's phrasing is very similar to Wes' phrasing on his particular recordings." (Tonit) This statement I would strongly dispute since Wes was not only a Jazz innovator during those early years and until his untimely death but his harmonic/melodic style had nothing to do with popular music and reaching out to the masses but was nonetheless popular among many who were not Jazz aficionados since he played many "popular songs".
Maybe it was so long that it obscures my point, and with a NYTimes article that everyone skips.

My point is, while in classic no later composers are better appreciated than the former composers, it is not necessarily the case of Jazz that shares so many musical devices with classical compositions.

And you probably have to note one important point about Metheny: Metheny gained popularity in the 80s, where rock/hard rock predominated the scene, by a sort of "fusion" as it is called, but was nonetheless the answer from Pat Metheny to the music scene. That was his significance, standing up against the music scene back at the time from the jazz camp. That was the time his fame really took off from the ground.

However, his musical answer back at the time was not exactly Jazz than his later works in the least to say, and definitely I can tell the main stream jazz musicians back in the 80s would not have considered that as Jazz than later jazz musicians do. That was the step ahead Pat Metheny hugely contributed to.

Also, I am not trying to relate Smooth Jazz in any way to Pat Metheny for the benefit of doubt. I am simply tracing their (Smooth Jazz' and Pat Metheny's) roots that both end at different Wes Montgomery works.

http://hepcat1950.com/patonwes.html

Specifically about Smooth Jazz, it can be traced back to "A Day in the Life" then George Benson came around (and note that Pat Metheny says "I don't mind it too much when George Benson does it-somehow there's a literal connection there that has a resonance and truth"), then maybe Norman Brown and/or Chuck Loeb who are considered to be smooth jazz artists but nobody can deny that they are among the greatests.

Also, it is popular assignments for lerners to transcribe their favorite guitarists even at schools that you highly regard, and I as one of their students, was trying to do it perfectly, which in turn worked as a springboard to develop my own little things. This is because what you like is the best possible educational material to approach to who you really are in the initial stage. And today I could still reproduce how my favorite guitarists play if it is so required in one way or the other, with my own little twists to it.

Also, today as you have mentioned, Mick Goodrick is a highly regarded educator, but you really cannot deny Allan Holdsworth influence there. Delay, chorus, headless guitars and so on and so forth.

All in all, what I am saying here is, basically, NEVER listen to critics, but listen to your heart. Even if you happen to like Kenny G, that is one of your own truths nobody can deny and therefore is important, it might be a pop music, but the matter of fact is, you do like the pop music if that is the case. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, Pat Metheny would be outright enraged when someone should dare say that that pop music is in fact Jazz.

That is the only problem here.

Cheers,

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NOTE TO ALL POSTING LINKS HERE.

Post by simonm » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm

I have PM'd a number of posters here regarding the youtube links above. Can you please edit your posts to remove the direct links to you tube.

These pieces are all under copyright and as such we cannot have direct links here. I am a jazz fan and enjoy the music and the good taste displayed but we have to respect the relevant copyright regulations.

Moderators are volunteers and it would take one of us a good half-hour if not longer to edit that many posts - there are other things I would prefer to do with the time. :-)

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Re: NOTE TO ALL POSTING LINKS HERE.

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:20 pm

Hi simonm,

simonm wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm
I have PM'd a number of posters here regarding the youtube links above. Can you please edit your posts to remove the direct links to you tube.

These pieces are all under copyright and as such we cannot have direct links here. I am a jazz fan and enjoy the music and the good taste displayed but we have to respect the relevant copyright regulations.

Moderators are volunteers and it would take one of us a good half-hour if not longer to edit that many posts - there are other things I would prefer to do with the time. :-)
How about the New York Times article? Isn't it copyrighted?

Can I quote?

Please kindly let me know.

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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:30 pm

Hi, Helsair
Helsair wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:05 am
Hi guys, I've recently gotten into Jazz guitar and I would love to start learning how to play it.
But I literally have no idea where to start.
If you guys could point me in the right direction for a novice, and give me some songs to learn I'd be very appreciative.
Playing Jazz means playing jazz standards oftentimes (but not always).

Jazz encompasses broader range of subcategories, but you can utilize all the classical techniques you already have. If you mean the main stream Wes Montgomery/Joe Pass kind of swinging jazz styles, then it usually starts with learning some jazz standards. However so, it might be easier for you to approach from Bossa Nova side of the house, as they use the same guitar you have oftentimes.

I'd say the very basic is so-called "rhythm change" and "jazz blues". With these two, you can go and jam already.

Jazz Blues (approved by the author):


Rhythem Changes (approval pending):
"How To Solo On Rhythm Changes (with Backing Tracks)" on YouTube



And with what you've learned out of "rhythm change" and "jazz blues", you can expand your repertoire to some tin pan alley and other famous? standards, like "days of wine and roses", "autumn leaves", "all the things you are" and so on.

If you take the Bossa Nova side, there are also range of standards. Also you can play "swing" jazz standards in Bossa style but it may not be introductory.

The introductory Bossa standards I recommend to learn include: "Blue Bossa" (play it slower), "Estate" (by an Italian composer) and so on.

Blue Bossa (George Benson: Please search on YouTube)

Estate (Bireli Lagrene and Sylvain Luc: Please search on YouTube)

You cannot and do not have to play these standards like these players to start of with, but there are so many tips and instruction videos for these tunes, because they are so popular and basic, which helps you in learning Jazz.

I hope this helps you,

T
Last edited by Tonit on Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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