Starting Jazz Guitar

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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RJVB
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:52 pm

It should be OK to direct-link to content put online by the authors (or performers) themselves, no (possibly via a non-boycotted link indirector, or whatever other mechanism exists that will prevent the video from being embedded here)? Otherwise it becomes more or less impossible to link to anything, because basically everything is under some sort of copyright...
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

Barry Guy
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Barry Guy » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:18 pm

Hi,
I am really impressed with your musical knowledge. My approach is very different as we all have different gifts. I play jazz standards on guitar, clarinet, saxophone and accordion, but as a relaxation, I have a vast collection of jazz cds, but play each continuously so that I get the tune fixed in my head, listening to as many good versions as I have available, then play the melody, then work on the chords. Doing it all for pleasure, playing each week to a group of ten to fifteen musicians, when they start requesting favourites I know I’ve got it. The Clarinet gives me the greatest pleasure as it is B flat, I have to transpose everything first.This being a Classical Guitar forum, I have started again to practice classical, but I don’t give it as much time as I should. I wonder why.

Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:35 pm

RJVB wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:52 pm
It should be OK to direct-link to content put online by the authors (or performers) themselves, no (possibly via a non-boycotted link indirector, or whatever other mechanism exists that will prevent the video from being embedded here)? Otherwise it becomes more or less impossible to link to anything, because basically everything is under some sort of copyright...
I have noted to the same effect since I rejoined.
However, that being the rule, we probably have to abide by for the time being.

But seriously, for the purpose of furtherance of music, undue ristriction or limitation may have rather negative effects to the forum, which would be on the contrary to the spirit of the copyright the ultimate goal of which is the furtherance of music by protecting the rights of the authors. Also there is highly possible scenario to promote wrong ideas about "honoring copyrights" among members.

YouTube guideline, for example, says it clearly on "Fair Use" including commentary and non-profit educational purposes.
It's not even about "direct-link or not" issue as it appears, because none of us are making any inequitable profit out of them in the first place.

So in my point of view, by abiding by this particular forum rule, we are not properly "honoring the copyright" but simply "honoring the forum rule" that we have to be aware of.

Otherwise, the rule in place promotes a wrong idea about "honoring the copyright". In brief, "honoring the copyright" means "you cannot make profit out of someone else' copyrighted materials".

Cheers,

dory
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by dory » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:21 am

I enjoy playing stuff from the website guitar downunder. (I am not quite sure I remember how they spell the website.) I use classical technique and a classical guitar but plat jazz standards. It is really fun.
Dory

Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:29 am

dory wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:21 am
I enjoy playing stuff from the website guitar downunder. (I am not quite sure I remember how they spell the website.) I use classical technique and a classical guitar but plat jazz standards. It is really fun.
Right. Do you have a cutaway guitar?
High position accessibility could be a challenge if you don't.

Rognvald
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Rognvald » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:14 pm

"But seriously, for the purpose of furtherance of music, undue ristriction or limitation may have rather negative effects to the forum, which would be on the contrary to the spirit of the copyright the ultimate goal of which is the furtherance of music by protecting the rights of the authors. Also there is highly possible scenario to promote wrong ideas about "honoring copyrights" among members." Tonit


I do not believe T intends to start a revolution or to attack this fine Forum but rather, as I believe, to find a way that we may use musical examples to illustrate our points and ideas. Music is one of the Arts that is served better by example than explanation and anything the moderators/management could do to address this would be a great benefit to the Forum. CG is morphing today in many different directions and what was defined as CG 20 years ago does not necessarily hold true today. If we want to excel in this dark Art and desire to speak musically to others with an individual, unique voice, we must allow ourselves to be a sensorium of ideas, sounds, and theoretical/intellectual discussions much as performing musicians do, in my first-hand experience, among themselves. Perhaps, we can find a way! Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:01 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:14 pm
"But seriously, for the purpose of furtherance of music, undue ristriction or limitation may have rather negative effects to the forum, which would be on the contrary to the spirit of the copyright the ultimate goal of which is the furtherance of music by protecting the rights of the authors. Also there is highly possible scenario to promote wrong ideas about "honoring copyrights" among members." Tonit


I do not believe T intends to start a revolution or to attack this fine Forum but rather, as I believe, to find a way that we may use musical examples to illustrate our points and ideas. Music is one of the Arts that is served better by example than explanation and anything the moderators/management could do to address this would be a great benefit to the Forum. CG is morphing today in many different directions and what was defined as CG 20 years ago does not necessarily hold true today. If we want to excel in this dark Art and desire to speak musically to others with an individual, unique voice, we must allow ourselves to be a sensorium of ideas, sounds, and theoretical/intellectual discussions much as performing musicians do, in my first-hand experience, among themselves. Perhaps, we can find a way! Playing again . . . Rognvald
No I don't at all.

I just assert that the idea of "respecting copyrights" is not equal to "respecting forum rules" here.

I do not know how much penalty/royalty Facebook, YouTube or Twitter, or DailyMotion or any other EU equivalent is paying per day, but there are direct links everywhere.

However so, it may be noteworthy that the copyright screenings only filter out when we upload any copyrighted material as our own content or any part thereof on the sites with full of ads (i.e. someone is cashing in out of the copyrighted material so published).

Now on the other hand, this forum does not have any ad nor does it have any direct link to any copyrighted material that is promoting to share the material by facilitating "share" button or otherwise on its original web location.

It's not any mystery when someone should raise a question about these.

Also questionable is that, the copyright as far as I know is provided for with a sole purpose to promote cultures and arts, meaning they are engineered out for it, after numbers of lawmakers working as hard as we work on our instrument for over a century. So and so, we should have a very strong base to set any different rules from the copyright, because otherwise the rules most likely should also serve us differently from the copyright law which is engineered out to promote and further any art or culture.

In a word, there certainly are rights for us to use any such copyrighted material, for the furtherance of our art, under certain conditions including without limitation non-profitable and educational use, but quite possibly are on the contrary restricted specifically in this forum under its own rules which are not the copyright law.

To note this is not a rebel act, as part of the forum.

But again it is a specified rule currently in effect of this forum so we should follow whenever it is enforceable and notified.

The foregoing is my opinion as a law grad, and possibly advisable by any vocational legal counsel that I am not.

Tonit
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Re: NOTE TO ALL POSTING LINKS HERE.

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 pm

simonm wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:03 pm
I have PM'd a number of posters here regarding the youtube links above. Can you please edit your posts to remove the direct links to you tube.

These pieces are all under copyright and as such we cannot have direct links here. I am a jazz fan and enjoy the music and the good taste displayed but we have to respect the relevant copyright regulations.

Moderators are volunteers and it would take one of us a good half-hour if not longer to edit that many posts - there are other things I would prefer to do with the time. :-)
Hi Simonm,
Thank you as always for guiding me through the direct link rule of this forum. I have to get back to you here as the other thread has been locked.
simonm wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:04 pm
Tonit wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:23 pm
... we are following the forum rule ...
Yes. We are following forum rules. None of the moderators are lawyers and apart from Prof Delcamp, none of us are French either, so we play it safe.

For what it is worth:

In the link you posted we worry about this section:
Article L122-5 En savoir plus sur cet article...
Modifié par LOI n°2018-771 du 5 septembre 2018 - art. 81
Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :

2° Les copies ou reproductions réalisées à partir d'une source licite et strictement réservées à l'usage privé du copiste et non destinées à une utilisation collective, …..

When anyone links to something on YouTube there is no guarantee that it is a "legal" source. By definition when something is published on the internet, here or on youtube or similar, it is not private and it IS for collective use. This section may be the equivalent of the "fair use" provision in other jurisdictions but the prohibition of utilisation collective is pretty explicit.

Hope that clears up our view point.
And thank you further for your answer about what appears to be your threat under the Article L122-5.

However, my question has been pertaining to another Paragraph under the Article.
e) La représentation ou la reproduction d'extraits d'oeuvres, sous réserve des oeuvres conçues à des fins pédagogiques et des partitions de musique, à des fins exclusives d'illustration dans le cadre de l'enseignement et de la recherche, y compris pour l'élaboration et la diffusion de sujets d'examens ou de concours organisés dans la prolongation des enseignements à l'exclusion de toute activité ludique ou récréative, dès lors que cette représentation ou cette reproduction est destinée, notamment au moyen d'un espace numérique de travail, à un public composé majoritairement d'élèves, d'étudiants, d'enseignants ou de chercheurs directement concernés par l'acte d'enseignement, de formation ou l'activité de recherche nécessitant cette représentation ou cette reproduction, qu'elle ne fait l'objet d'aucune publication ou diffusion à un tiers au public ainsi constitué, que l'utilisation de cette représentation ou cette reproduction ne donne lieu à aucune exploitation commerciale et qu'elle est compensée par une rémunération négociée sur une base forfaitaire sans préjudice de la cession du droit de reproduction par reprographie mentionnée à l'article
(again, sory but Google Translate that I could barely make of)
e) The representation or reproduction of excerpts of works subject to the works designed for educational purposes and musical scores, for the sole purpose of illustration for teaching and research, including for the development and dissemination of topics of exams or competitions in extra lessons to the exclusion of any entertainment or recreational activity, since this representation or reproduction that is intended, including through space digital work to an audience mainly composed of pupils, students, teachers or researchers directly affected by the act of teaching, training or research activity requiring such representation or reproduction this, thatit is not the subject of any publication or dissemination to third parties and the public made that the use of this representation or reproduction that does not lead to any commercial use and is offset by fees negotiated on a basis fixed without prejudice to the transfer of the reproduction right reprographic mentioned in ArticleL.
The Item 10 specifies as follows:
10° Les copies ou reproductions numériques réalisées à partir d'une source licite, en vue de l'exploration de textes et de données incluses ou associées aux écrits scientifiques pour les besoins de la recherche publique, à l'exclusion de toute finalité commerciale.
(yet again, sory but Google Translate that I could barely make of)
10 ° Copies or digital reproductions made from a legal source, to text mining and data included or associated with the scientific literature for the needs of public research, excluding any commercial purpose. A decree sets the conditions for exploration of the texts and data is implemented as well as the conservation and communication modalities of files produced at the end of the research activities for which they were produced; these files are research data;

And thank you further to clarify that we are advised by the moderators of the forum rules, and not necessaril for the French copyright law.

Then maybe, is it not a good idea to include the wording "respect the copyright law", if the one has already been respecting one? - new question 1

This may POSSIBLY be negatively affecting, promoting confusions among the members with ill informed concepts about "respecting the copyright (law)", as I have seen among the members such as below:
Dave B wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:20 am
I have just scrolled down the board index and see that the section "extracts of works in progress" allows music files. Maybe I could post my recordings mentioned in my previous post there? The trouble is the recordings are more than 30 seconds,they are just simple chords with no melody so I assume there would be no copyright issues? I could trim them down maybe if necessary?
While it is a very good idea to keep the awareness of any such IP right, the part of our membership with the copyright knowledge to such an extent or limitation, might highly likely to be ill-informed with or confuse with the forum rules and copyright laws, with the currently used wording of the moderators.

And as I have repeatedly noted, the ultimate goal of the copyright and its relevant provisions in legislations globally, is to promote the art, and not to frustrate the same. So wrongly applied and further enforced copyright rules might have a negative effect against the goal of the copyright laws.

Furthermore, your rules on copyright to be "respected" only applied to musical direct links, and not texts so far, as I cited and also have seen some text (or graphic) based protected works that went and has gone, and is going unadvised for editing, unlike the YouTube videos.

So, here is my question 2: Should the rule be uniformly applied to those text- and graphic- based copyrighted materials, and not only the music videos or Audios as provided herein by the direct links that has only been targeted in fact?

And if the status quo is just fine, then why specifically YouTube and other Audio/Videos are targeted?


Thank you for further guiding through the rules.

T
Last edited by Tonit on Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simonm
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Re: NOTE TO ALL POSTING LINKS HERE.

Post by simonm » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:02 pm

Tonit wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 pm

....
So, here is my question 2: Should the rule be uniformly applied to those text- and graphic- based copyrighted materials, and not only the music videos or Audios as provided herein by the direct links that has only been targeted in fact?

And if the status quo is just fine, then why specifically YouTube and other Audio/Videos are targeted?


...
We apply the rules to sheet music and other written publications not just video/audio. But it is not as visible.

We even get people (spammers) joining up to promote file sharing websites. Their memberships are terminated so nothing is visible. When established members link to copyright music, the links are also removed. Not as many members link to sheet music resources, and many who do link to sites which have strong copyright policies themselves.

Tonit
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Re: NOTE TO ALL POSTING LINKS HERE.

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Hi Simonm,
simonm wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:02 pm
Tonit wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 pm

....
So, here is my question 2: Should the rule be uniformly applied to those text- and graphic- based copyrighted materials, and not only the music videos or Audios as provided herein by the direct links that has only been targeted in fact?

And if the status quo is just fine, then why specifically YouTube and other Audio/Videos are targeted?


...
We apply the rules to sheet music and other written publications not just video/audio. But it is not as visible.

We even get people (spammers) joining up to promote file sharing websites. Their memberships are terminated so nothing is visible. When established members link to copyright music, the links are also removed. Not as many members link to sheet music resources, and many who do link to sites which have strong copyright policies themselves.
Thank you as always.

I have no further question for now, pending question 1 but you don't have to answer, apparently.

And for the benefit of doubt, I am going to respect to the full extent the forum rules, without your saying "respect the copyright law".

T

Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:18 pm

Hi again Simonm,
It's a fine example of the subject matter.
elcharro70 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:05 pm
A few years back a fellow named Robert Yelin published about five books' worth of his chord-melody arrangements of jazz standards.

https ://www. dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/boca-raton-fl/robert-yelin-6506699

There's also Howard Morgen, who comes out with a new book every decade or so on how to arrange chord-melody versions of songs - which themselves contain a few examples. His Through Chord-Melody and Beyond is really well-written and contains lots of suggestions for further work. He passed away in 2012 (obituary here):

http ://www. howardmorgen.com/

Also, Mel Bay published a really excellent set called Jazz Guitar Standards: Chord-Melody Solos which contains about 40-odd chord-melody arrangements, but each arranged by a different guitarist. There are some outstanding arrangements in it - some breath-takingly novel and at least one reminiscent of the same tune as recorded by Johnny Smith.

And speaking of Johnny Smith, if you haven't heard his playing you are in for some fantastic experiences...
[Post Editing] I see these are ok links: hyperlinks.
Last edited by Tonit on Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Tonit
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:30 pm

Here is yet another one with some under the thread, off the subject matter, but is relevant in the context of the discussion. And you are participating.
Are news sites copyrighted?
simonm wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:42 am
Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:03 pm
I must apologize. I do not understand what "to clock up food-miles" means.
It will be easier and cheaper to transport food longer distances. "Clock up" = add to the count. Speedometers and Odometers are sometimes referred to as clocks. If you drive a long distance you are "clocking up miles" on the odometer in your vehicle.

In Europe a vast amount of perishable food comes from the south of Spain and is trucked all over Europe. Tomatoes or strawberries, for example travel anywhere from 1,000-3,000km by truck before they get to the consumer. In the US the distances are probably even greater - California to Chicago/NY. Yes there is local produce but people have been trained to ignore seasons.

Depending on which statistic you prefer to believe, the average calorie we consume takes 8-15 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce. Transport is one of the components.
[Post Editing] I see these are ok links too: hyperlinks.

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RJVB
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Re: Starting Jazz Guitar

Post by RJVB » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:27 pm

Tonit wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:30 pm
[Post Editing] I see these are ok links too: hyperlinks.
Yeah, well, I guess that most other kinds of link are simply not relevant here (chain links, symlinks) :arrow:
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

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