Flow state

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Tomzooki
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Flow state

Post by Tomzooki » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:58 pm

I am actually surfing on internet, looking for infos concerning the flow state. I found that site that explain very well the phenomenon. I just don’t buy thogoughly the nootropics blabla - though I just ordered a pot of NALT :lol:

What brought me to look about the flow is a funny though annoying constatation I made today: how my emotional state, how I see and feel life, is controlled by neurotransmitters. Yes, I know, it is a scientific fact, but feeling it is more ehh... frustrating?.. insulting?.. I don’t know what term to use... than just knowing it. What happened? I just forgot (again :oops: ) to take my pills. And I felt a bit depressed. It is not the Trintellix (antidepressant) omission that caused that; its half-life is about 72h, a 6h delay would do absolutely nothing, and I take it for anxiety disorder, not depression. In the past, when I forgot antidepressant pills with a much shorter half-life (Citalopram, or worse Effexor) I became nervous and very irritable, but not depressed at all. The culprit is my ADHD pill Vyvanse. That means that I was feeling that way because my brain’s level of dopamine was lower than usual. When I understood I took my pills, and two hours later I was feeling great, and thinking about dopamine and its influence on mood. And its influence in the flow state. And the flow state itself.

One of the most fascinating part is the prefrontal cortex inhibition, which means the inhibition of self-consciousness, and alteration of time perception.

BTW that « tranche de vie » is by no means a testimony against psychotropic drugs like Trintellix or Vyvanse. If one stops abruptly Vyvanse he may feel sleepy and a tiny bit depressed for 2 or 3 days, that’s all. Antidepressant drugs can be stopped, but by decreasing doses gradually. And that kind of medication is used to help a dysfunctioning brain to work as normally as possible, not to « boost » a brain.
Last edited by Tomzooki on Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

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Tomzooki
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Location: Quebec city, Canada

Re: Flow state

Post by Tomzooki » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:10 pm

Tomzooki wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:58 pm
I am actually surfing on internet, looking for infos concerning the flow state. I found that site that explain very well the phenomenon. I just don’t buy thogoughly the nootropics blabla - though I just ordered a pot of NALT :lol:

What brought me to look about the flow is a funny though annoying constatation I made today: how my emotional state, how I see and feel life, is controlled by neurotransmitters. Yes, I know, it is a scientific fact, but feeling it is more ehh... frustrating?.. insulting?.. I don’t know what term to use... than just knowing it. What happened? I just forgot (again :oops: ) to take my pills. And I felt a bit depressed. It is not the Trintellix (antidepressant) omission that caused that; its half-life is about 72h, a 6h delay would do absolutely nothing, and I take it for anxiety disorder, not depression. In the past, when I forgot antidepressant pills with a much shorter half-life (Citalopram, or worse Effexor) I became nervous and very irritable, but not depressed at all. The culprit is my ADHD pill Vyvanse. That means that I was feeling that way because my brain’s level of dopamine was lower than usual. When I understood I took my pills, and two hours later I was feeling great, and thinking about dopamine and its influence on mood. And its influence in the flow state. And the flow state itself.

One of the most fascinating part is the prefrontal cortex inhibition, which means the inhibition of self-consciousness, and alteration of time perception.

BTW that « tranche de vie » is by no means a testimony against psychotropic drugs like Trintellix or Vyvanse. If one stops abruptly Vyvanse he may feel sleepy and a tiny bit depressed for 2 or 3 days, that’s all. Antidepressant drugs can be stopped, but by decreasing doses gradually. And that kind of medication is used to help a dysfunctioning brain to work as normally as possible, not to « boost » a brain.
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

PeteJ
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Re: Flow state

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:58 am

I don't know what to say. To me your regime of pill-taking looks fantastically dangerous.

It reminds me of trying level up the legs of a table one leg at a time.

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Amy Gaudia
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Re: Flow state

Post by Amy Gaudia » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:17 pm

Maybe try meditation instead of medication. I'm sure you are aware of all many meditation practices that could be beneficial.

If you are into sound and science, and it seems like you are, you could experiment with brain entrainment. One popular program is called "Holosync" and I have personally known people who made huge life changes as a result of this method.

Good luck on your journey!
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Flow state

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:42 pm

I have to agree with Petej, medication is not the answer. Have a listen to the wonderful lecture series on youtube by John Vervaeke called 'Awakening from the Meaning crisis.' Highly recommended.

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Lawler
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Re: Flow state

Post by Lawler » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:55 pm

The nootropics site linked to is junk science. The medical treatment you're getting for serious depression is not.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Flow state

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:11 pm

Maybe you will find some interesting information on meditation here:
http://www.simplybeing.co.uk/
best wishes
Robert
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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Tomzooki
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Re: Flow state

Post by Tomzooki » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm

In fact I was interested in the « flow state » topic; for a musician it is when one is completely absorbed in the music and is disconnected of everything else, you know, an « état de grâce »

The dopamine/Vyvanse subject was just to explain why I wanted to know the physiological explanations of the flow state. It is simply stunning to notice the impact of a tiny change in the brain chemistry. I initially thought the flow state was a rush of dopamine; finally it is far more complex, it involves several neurotransmitters and a shut-down of the dorso-lateral prefrontal cortex. As I said, fascinating 8)

Don’t worry about me and the medication; Trintellix is fantastic on my TAG, which is not severe and very well controlled by a relatively low dose. My ADHD, witch is in fact a ADD without the H, is rather mild, but enough to make me a little dangerous while driving a car :shock: , and I would have trouble doing my job (pharmacist) without the Vyvanse. I tolerate very well those pills. Of course those are not candies, but they pose no problem to me, except when I forget the Vyvanse :lol:
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Flow state

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:09 pm

Tomzooki wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:17 pm
In fact I was interested in the « flow state » topic; for a musician it is when one is completely absorbed in the music and is disconnected of everything else, you know, an « état de grâce »
I think this is quite a mistaken notion of flow that is very vulnerable. To my understanding a state of flow is to be fully connected to the environment but not be disturbed by things going on. Otherwise it is going to be an escapistic absorption that doesn't communicate with anybody, and this is the end of music as communication between the musician and the listener. Nothing I would consider desirable at all.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

MessyTendon
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Re: Flow state

Post by MessyTendon » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:18 am

I took a short course of drugs. I had really wanted to think I could continue taking them but the side effects were too much. It was honestly the worst three weeks of my life and I only took them for about a month.

It's not impossible to taper off, but it's not easy. To suffer these dark mental states is not fun. I had a glimpse of hope taking them and I honestly thought it was absurd that it was okay to feel okay.

To lack dopamine response consistently is tough. Some people are genuinely happy and I can't fault them for that.

Have you considered testing your blood for lyme spirochetes? Unfortunately they won't clinically diagnose it, but if you pay out of pocket to a good reference lab like Igenix, there is a much greater chance of learning if you have been exposed. Spirochetes really wreak havoc on the mental state.

It's been 20+ years for me and I'd not rule out mental health being related to vector born illness. If you have house cats it's possible they have bartonella. Quite common in cats, if you've been scratched. But the Borellia, has many different species and the cdc test does not test specifically for all the bands on the test...thus if you pay you might find that indeed you have been exposed.

I don't think it should ever been overlooked because it is so common.

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Tomzooki
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Re: Flow state

Post by Tomzooki » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:44 am

MessyTendon wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:18 am
I took a short course of drugs. I had really wanted to think I could continue taking them but the side effects were too much. It was honestly the worst three weeks of my life and I only took them for about a month.

It's not impossible to taper off, but it's not easy. To suffer these dark mental states is not fun. I had a glimpse of hope taking them and I honestly thought it was absurd that it was okay to feel okay.

To lack dopamine response consistently is tough. Some people are genuinely happy and I can't fault them for that.

Have you considered testing your blood for lyme spirochetes? Unfortunately they won't clinically diagnose it, but if you pay out of pocket to a good reference lab like Igenix, there is a much greater chance of learning if you have been exposed. Spirochetes really wreak havoc on the mental state.

It's been 20+ years for me and I'd not rule out mental health being related to vector born illness. If you have house cats it's possible they have bartonella. Quite common in cats, if you've been scratched. But the Borellia, has many different species and the cdc test does not test specifically for all the bands on the test...thus if you pay you might find that indeed you have been exposed.

I don't think it should ever been overlooked because it is so common.

Generalysed anxiety disorder is caused by low levels of serotonine. It is also the case for depression. The lightly depressed mood I have when forgetting the Adderall is just a witdrawal symptom; it would not last more than 2 or 3 days if I stopped the drug completely. But I would be a dangerous car driver and a dangerous pharmacist without it :wink:

I really don't think I suffer of vector born illness, because I presented very classical symptoms of those disorders, and I responded very well to the treatments. But I would consider the possibility if it was not the case.

The intensity of side effects of drugs working on the nervous system is very variable from one person to the other. For example Effexor is famous for being hard to stop, even when slowly tappered down, but personnally in the past I stopped it "cold turkey" from 75mg to 0mg with no problem. Seroquel is often used at low dose, 25mg, for insomnia, and is generally very well tolerated, but I saw 2 cases of persons being heavily sedated for almost 24h at 12,5mg. Some people on psychostimulant like Vyvanse loses their appetite and/or have insomnia, others have no problem at all. I have a friend who took Paxil for a bad case of OCD, she had no side effects at the beginning (though of course she gained weight), it worked amazingly well but... yes, no more OCD but she was in hypomania state... We just don't know how those drugs will be tolerated until they are tried :?
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Flow state

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:46 pm

Talking about the subject of this thread (flow state), check out this talk, one of a fascinating lecture series by John Vervaeke:


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