Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Abd El Ghani AZZI
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by Abd El Ghani AZZI » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:52 pm

chiral3 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:14 pm
Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Language (all aspects)
Simple machines.
Maths.
Chemistry.
While this thread is obviously subjective to each, I'd have to disagree with the assertion that math is manmade. I've encountered too many objects, structures, and symmetries connecting far too many seemingly unrelated things that were there, just waiting to be discovered, with or without man's help. I wish everyone could see these things but the price for admission is rather high for most. :D
Sure.

What is manmade after all?
Language was possible thanks to phonation organs.
Writing? hands.
Our limbs are simple machines.
Calculus started when someone noticed that stones look enough alike to make a series.
Atoms existed well before we knew they did.

I think that we need to settle on precise definitions of the word invention and the verb to make.
The meaning I was giving to invention is the archaic one. "The act of discovering or finding; the act of finding out; discovery.

I am not sure I grasp the logic of this assertion :
chiral3 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:14 pm
"... just waiting to be discovered, with or without man's help".
And yes Maths are everywhere, and have always been
What was man made about them is their formalism.
Someone had to invent numbers, accept the idea of the zero, be lucky enough to meet with positional notation, propose theorems, play with Pi, etc...
This is what I meant.

Great exchanging with you!
:D

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Abd El Ghani AZZI
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by Abd El Ghani AZZI » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:55 pm

ddray wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:53 am
chiral3 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:14 pm
Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Language (all aspects)
Simple machines.
Maths.
Chemistry.
While this thread is obviously subjective to each, I'd have to disagree with the assertion that math is manmade. I've encountered too many objects, structures, and symmetries connecting far too many seemingly unrelated things that were there, just waiting to be discovered, with or without man's help. I wish everyone could see these things but the price for admission is rather high for most. :D
I'd say the same thing about music. I believe Bach would tell you that he was a discoverer, not an inventor. I think Stravinsky might have said something along those lines too.
Sure.

Take a look at this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention ... ias_(Bach)

I know it is a bit silly.

But what can we do?

:D

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Lawler
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by Lawler » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:02 pm

Eyeglasses
Shoes

chiral3
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by chiral3 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:51 pm

Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:52 pm

And yes Maths are everywhere, and have always been
What was man made about them is their formalism.
Someone had to invent numbers, accept the idea of the zero, be lucky enough to meet with positional notation, propose theorems, play with Pi, etc...
This is what I meant.

Great exchanging with you!
:D
I guess that’s where I disagree - for instance, I don’t believe some numbers were invented. Some are constructed (invented), but there are some that just seem to exist. We can dig until we find something elemental, that doesn’t go any further, like an electron or a prime number, only to find levels of abstractions that subsume everything else. These abstractions are monads that appear to be from another universe looking back at us. Some things may be elemental, or may just be crazy and weird, and we may never know why. For instance, why is there an unmistakable relationship between random matrices, nuclear decay, and the distribution of prime numbers? Humans didn’t invent this, it just exists to either screw with us or to let us know that there’s something more. Or why does certain fundamental aspects of nature fall naturally out of (and be described by) purely mathematical notions of continuous symmetries? Or why are there fundamental constants in nature (c, h-bar, fine structure constant)? These aren’t the types of maths that have axioms or semiotics that the philosophers get all bent out of shape with, they just seem to be there already. Of course if one subscribes to various Anthropic principles and related beliefs than they will disagree with what I just said. The number and beauty of these things is just too much for me to be coincident. My first religious experience that didn’t require faith of any kind was in graduate general relativity.
“Every man should be capable of all ideas, and I believe that in the future he will be.” ― Jorge Luis Borges

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BugDog
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by BugDog » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:19 pm

The list of inventions
BugDog
There's one in every crowd.

ddray
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by ddray » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:27 pm

Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:55 pm
...
Sure.

Take a look at this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention ... ias_(Bach)

I know it is a bit silly.

But what can we do?

:D
I think we have to remember the idea behind the Latin root of the words "invent, invention, inventor" which originally was "to find or...discover". :mrgreen:

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Abd El Ghani AZZI
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by Abd El Ghani AZZI » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:10 pm

chiral3 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:51 pm
Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:52 pm

And yes Maths are everywhere, and have always been
What was man made about them is their formalism.
Someone had to invent numbers, accept the idea of the zero, be lucky enough to meet with positional notation, propose theorems, play with Pi, etc...
This is what I meant.

Great exchanging with you!
:D
I guess that’s where I disagree - for instance, I don’t believe some numbers were invented. Some are constructed (invented), but there are some that just seem to exist. We can dig until we find something elemental, that doesn’t go any further, like an electron or a prime number, only to find levels of abstractions that subsume everything else. These abstractions are monads that appear to be from another universe looking back at us. Some things may be elemental, or may just be crazy and weird, and we may never know why. For instance, why is there an unmistakable relationship between random matrices, nuclear decay, and the distribution of prime numbers? Humans didn’t invent this, it just exists to either screw with us or to let us know that there’s something more. Or why does certain fundamental aspects of nature fall naturally out of (and be described by) purely mathematical notions of continuous symmetries? Or why are there fundamental constants in nature (c, h-bar, fine structure constant)? These aren’t the types of maths that have axioms or semiotics that the philosophers get all bent out of shape with, they just seem to be there already. Of course if one subscribes to various Anthropic principles and related beliefs than they will disagree with what I just said. The number and beauty of these things is just too much for me to be coincident. My first religious experience that didn’t require faith of any kind was in graduate general relativity.
You're right.

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Abd El Ghani AZZI
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Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by Abd El Ghani AZZI » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:21 pm

ddray wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:27 pm
Abd El Ghani AZZI wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:55 pm
...
Sure.

Take a look at this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention ... ias_(Bach)

I know it is a bit silly.

But what can we do?

:D
I think we have to remember the idea behind the Latin root of the words "invent, invention, inventor" which originally was "to find or...discover". :mrgreen:
Excellent! ddray.
:D

marvluse

Re: Mankind's Greatest Inventions

Post by marvluse » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:37 am

"Invention" is a slippery concept. For this I blame the guy who invented language, for failing to patent, copyright, trademark, make regal decrees, laws, rules, and regulations that every word shall have a single precise meaning.

Greatest "inventor?" Bach, or maybe Thomas Edison. Bach's 30 "inventions" for the keyboard is surely a staggering number. And I like them all.

:lol:

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