Translation of "sans buter"?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
User avatar
Charlie Schultz
Amateur luthier
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Atlanta (Snellville), GA USA

Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Charlie Schultz » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 am

Can anyone provide a translation of the phrase "sans buter" as used in the photo below? I think it literally means "without stumbling" but I don't think that's quite right here.
IMG_20190704_173041.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tomzooki
Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:12 am
Location: Quebec city, Canada

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Tomzooki » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:17 am

I think it means "no rest strokes"
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

Conall
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 am
Location: Scotland

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Conall » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:39 am

And I just thought it was something to do with the current craze for veganism....

User avatar
Schneider
Posts: 494
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Paris, France

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Schneider » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:44 am

Conall wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:39 am
And I just thought it was something to do with the current craze for veganism....
:lol: that's funny, thanks for making me laugh. Now I'm also thinking of cholesterol free!

Conall
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 am
Location: Scotland

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Conall » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:05 am

I could never work out why any composer would bother writing "It was a long summer" on a piece of music until it was explained to me that "etwas langsamer" meant something else...

User avatar
Arash Ahmadi
Posts: 794
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 am

Conall wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:05 am
I could never work out why any composer would bother writing "It was a long summer" on a piece of music ...
begging for sympathy? :D
Becoming a great musician is about becoming a great human being.

"The duty of an artist is to take a demon and deliver an angel" (Dr. Elahi Ghomshei)

Conall
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:26 am
Location: Scotland

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Conall » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:23 am

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 am
Conall wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:05 am
I could never work out why any composer would bother writing "It was a long summer" on a piece of music ...
begging for sympathy? :D
Right enough, I didn't think much of the piece....

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:27 am

Nearest might be something like 'smoothly'?
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 1979
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:14 am

Tomzooki wrote:I think it means "no rest strokes"
Tomzooki is correct.

I taught French students for several years:

buté = apoyando
double buté = double stroke of the thumb e.g. across strings six and five, coming to rest on the fourth.

Referring to the "ordinary" execution of tirando we would generally use a simple term such as pincement.

Consider this endlessly repeated question:
A French Student wrote:Est-il possible techniquement de buter le pouce (par exemple sur le mi 6ème corde) en jouant ensemble (sans arpéger) l'index et le majeur en pincé ? je tente vainement d'associer le geste. La basse ne sonne pas en même temps que les aigus.
You will have heard it many times in English.

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:59 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:14 am
Tomzooki wrote:I think it means "no rest strokes"
Tomzooki is correct.

I taught French students for several years:
....
Always helps to know what you're talking about :shock:

Couldn't work out how apoyando and abuter were related...Think I've worked it out; "abuter" translates to "abut" one of the definitions of which is "touch or lean on".
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

User avatar
bear
Posts: 4159
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:55 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by bear » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:21 am

oleo
2019 Gretsch G9126 432mm
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Giustina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

User avatar
Alexander Kalil
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:35 am

A French Student wrote:Est-il possible techniquement de buter le pouce (par exemple sur le mi 6ème corde) en jouant ensemble (sans arpéger) l'index et le majeur en pincé?
Oui c'est possible techniquement, of course, mais c'est rarement utile si on a un strong and well developed thumb free stroke.
je tente vainement d'associer le geste. La basse ne sonne pas en même temps que les aigus.
Examinez la forme de votre ongle du pouce. It is probably catching on the string.

(Comments to the French student, not Mark, of course :lol: )
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:59 am
Couldn't work out how apoyando and abuter were related.
I think it's "buter" rather than "abuter" which has a different meaning. Learned from a French colleague a long time ago: buté = rest stroke, pincé = free stroke.

User avatar
RJVB
Posts: 687
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:29 am
Location: La Ferté Milon, France

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:14 am
A French Student wrote:Est-il possible techniquement de buter le pouce (par exemple sur le mi 6ème corde) en jouant ensemble (sans arpéger) l'index et le majeur en pincé ? je tente vainement d'associer le geste. La basse ne sonne pas en même temps que les aigus.
You will have heard it many times in English.
No, I haven't but I hope the answer is yes (unless you impose the mathematical definition of simultaneous)!
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

marvluse

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by marvluse » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:48 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:14 am
Tomzooki wrote:I think it means "no rest strokes"
Tomzooki is correct.

I taught French students for several years:

buté = apoyando
double buté = double stroke of the thumb e.g. across strings six and five, coming to rest on the fourth.

Referring to the "ordinary" execution of tirando we would generally use a simple term such as pincement.

Consider this endlessly repeated question:
A French Student wrote:Est-il possible techniquement de buter le pouce (par exemple sur le mi 6ème corde) en jouant ensemble (sans arpéger) l'index et le majeur en pincé ? je tente vainement d'associer le geste. La basse ne sonne pas en même temps que les aigus.
You will have heard it many times in English.
Well, maybe. I would interpret it to mean "without butter," but what do I know? :lol:

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 1979
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm

RJVB wrote:No, I haven't ...
It's been posed on this very forum on more than one occasion.
RJVB wrote:... but I hope the answer is yes (unless you impose the mathematical definition of simultaneous)!
Good grief! Please don't take us down the path of having to define guitar playing mathematically ... finding some agreement in plain English is difficult enough.
Stephen Kenyon wrote:Always helps to know what you're talking about.
Lol. I must keep that in mind when answering in future.

A problem with translation is that idiomatic or vernacular use, colloquialisms, jargon etc. are not commonly taken into account. Add historical and regional differences to the mix and we're often running on half truths and misinformation.

How many of us think that we know what allegro means and can even back up our belief with some music dictionary or other?
Alexander Kalil wrote:Oui c'est possible techniquement, of course, mais c'est rarement utile si on a un strong and well developed thumb free stroke.
Yay! Franglais ... from a German.

Return to “The Café”