Translation of "sans buter"?

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RobMacKillop
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:55 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm


How many of us think that we know what allegro means?
Just one llegro...

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RJVB
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:59 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm
How many of us think that we know what allegro means and can even back up our belief with some music dictionary or other?
What it means isn't too difficult, how to interpret it is another matter.

Try sprezzatura :mrgreen:
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:45 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:Just one llegro...
Rob - you operate on too lofty an intellectual plane for me.
RJVB wrote:What it means isn't too difficult ...
So, an Italian wiktionary site gives (specific to music):
Adverb - indication of movement, to be performed fairly quickly, between presto and andante.

That's precisely the sort of thing I was alluding to.
RJVB wrote:Try sprezzatura
Can one achieve sprezzatura by trying?

EDIT: What's that guitar in your Avatar?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:57 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:EDIT: What's that guitar in your Avatar?
Never mind RJVB - just saw your signature.

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RJVB
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:59 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:45 pm
Adverb - indication of movement, to be performed fairly quickly, between presto and andante.

That's precisely the sort of thing I was alluding to.
Sadly I couldn't exclude that part without copying only the non-musical definitions. It's a nice attempt that only succeeds to refer to other terms that can only be defined in context.
Can one achieve sprezzatura by trying?
Sure, as long as it doesn't look like you are (and you succeed, of course).
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

marvluse

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by marvluse » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm

Methinks this thread has wandered into the weeds, LOL. Of course colloquial, regional, and other distortions of language can contort meanings. One that has always tickled me is from English...

"That is really hot."
"That is really cool."

They essentially mean the same thing, yet utilize concepts that are polar opposites. But composers typically would not likely ever use them. I've never seen a score marked "poco a poco caldo" or "più fresco" for example. I have certainly favored The King's English or its Italian counterpart when marking a score. :wink:

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Tomzooki
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Tomzooki » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:20 pm

Schneider wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:44 am
Conall wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:39 am
And I just thought it was something to do with the current craze for veganism....
:lol: that's funny, thanks for making me laugh. Now I'm also thinking of cholesterol free!

Conall wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:05 am
I could never work out why any composer would bother writing "It was a long summer" on a piece of music until it was explained to me that "etwas langsamer" meant something else...
Alexander Kalil wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:35 am
A French Student wrote:Est-il possible techniquement de buter le pouce (par exemple sur le mi 6ème corde) en jouant ensemble (sans arpéger) l'index et le majeur en pincé?
Oui c'est possible techniquement, of course, mais c'est rarement utile si on a un strong and well developed thumb free stroke.
je tente vainement d'associer le geste. La basse ne sonne pas en même temps que les aigus.
Examinez la forme de votre ongle du pouce. It is probably catching on the string.

(Comments to the French student, not Mark, of course :lol: )
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:59 am
Couldn't work out how apoyando and abuter were related.
I think it's "buter" rather than "abuter" which has a different meaning. Learned from a French colleague a long time ago: buté = rest stroke, pincé = free stroke.
marvluse wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:48 pm
...Well, maybe. I would interpret it to mean "without butter," but what do I know? :lol:

Hilarous! :lol: :lol: :lol: I did not expect this topic to so interestingly funny!
Last edited by Tomzooki on Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by simonm » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:25 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:Always helps to know what you're talking about.
Lol. I must keep that in mind when answering in future.
Good grief no!

It's the internet. No need to know anything about anything. Just express an opinion loudly enoug,h and often enough, and you will be a "thought leader" in no time at all. :-)

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Tomzooki
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Tomzooki » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:27 pm

Just to clarify the french nomenclature of RH strokes:

Buté = rest stroke
Tiré = free stroke

The term « tiré » is annoying, because it litterally means to « tirer », to pull the string. It is a misleading term, because of course one must not « tirer la corde ».....
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

marvluse

Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by marvluse » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:38 pm

Tomzooki wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:27 pm
Just to clarify the french nomenclature of RH strokes:

Buté = rest stroke
Tiré = free stroke

The term « tiré » is annoying, because it literally means to « tirer », to pull the string. It is a misleading term, because of course one must not « tirer la corde ».....
Well, there is a kind of perverse sense to it. If one does not occasionally rest, one gets tired. Or, as the French would have it, tiréd :lol:

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Isabelle Frizac
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Isabelle Frizac » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:41 pm

Buter = rest stroke

sans buter= without rest stroke

from a French woman ...not tired ! :P
keep hope !
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Tomzooki
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Tomzooki » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:13 pm

marvluse wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:38 pm
Tomzooki wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:27 pm
Just to clarify the french nomenclature of RH strokes:

Buté = rest stroke
Tiré = free stroke

The term « tiré » is annoying, because it literally means to « tirer », to pull the string. It is a misleading term, because of course one must not « tirer la corde ».....
Well, there is a kind of perverse sense to it. If one does not occasionally rest, one gets tired. Or, as the French would have it, tiréd :lol:
Isabelle Frizac wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:41 pm
Buter = rest stroke

sans buter= without rest stroke

from a French woman ...not tired ! :P
I love those jeux de mots!
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RJVB
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by RJVB » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:29 pm

I don't know why I only realise this now but this phrase could also mean

(please) don't kill (the music)

=)
Last edited by RJVB on Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

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Tomzooki
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Re: Translation of "sans buter"?

Post by Tomzooki » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:49 pm

RJVB wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:29 pm
I don't know why I only realise this know but this phrase could also mean

(please) don't kill (the music)

=)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

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