What the Hell is going on in France?

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DaveLloyd
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by DaveLloyd » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:35 am

No idea which video was originally referenced by the OP. I alighted on the 1 hour 45 minutes one from Festival Au Grès du Jazz. About 45 Minutes in so far. Love it!

He seems to have been around as a musician for a long time (child prodigy?). Wish I'd heard of him before.

Always was fond of Django, Hot Club, gypsy jazz, etc. Oh well loads more CDs to buy and enjoy now!

marvluse

Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by marvluse » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:19 am

riffmeister wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:58 pm
Cipher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:47 pm
simonm wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:03 pm
Thank you Cipher. You put it very nicely. :-)
You're welcome simonm - thanks for the kind words and all that you do for our forum! :D

:merci:
Agreed. This is a great place to hang out. Thanks to all moderators for keeping this place from becoming another "Lord of the Flies".
It is, indeed! We all share a common love, the CG. And being respectful and civil towards each other is surely in our best interests! But that does not imply that we all think alike. Were that the case, how could be be much different than ants, or the Borg Collective of Star Trek fame? :wink:

Tonit
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Tonit » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:55 am

Hi Erik,
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 pm
This forum is hosted in France, where the laws on copyrights are very strict. Mr. Delcamp has been warned by the French authorities that his forum will be shut down if it spreads illegal (=copyright violations) material. The moderators simply try to avoid being shut down. I hope you all understand Mr. Delcamp's position (he can't afford the costs of legal action against him) and the reason why we remove some videos.
I understand your details about the copyright in France.

I do not speak french that good, so I do not understand fully the Article L122-5 of French Copyright law, except that I can barely understood, from the notorious GoogleTranslate, that the first sentence reads:

Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :
(When the work has been divulged, the author can not prohibit:)


Then the list follows.

(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCo ... e=20190720)

According to some academic legal forums, this is equivalent of "fair use" list in other jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, as I have been kindly notified from moderators in this forum at times, the criteria to issue any such notification is simply "the author's death plus a certain number of years".

Can you kindly explain the relationship of the Article L122-5 and your criteria?

Thank you in advance.

Rognvald
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:54 pm

riffmeister wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:42 pm
This is going on in the US. Brilliant 8 string guitarist Charlie Hunter talking about his "chops". (His guitar consists of the three low strings on a bass guitar and the five top strings on a regular guitar) Check out his other lectures, too.....very interesting stuff.

Search YouTube for "Covert Chops | Charlie Hunter Clinic"
Thanks, Riff for the video. I'm going to check Charlie out. From what he played, he's got a Funky sound . . . I thought I was back in my old neighborhood in Chicago. Also, his concept of "covert" chops is what we call in CG-- playing with a feel for the music. This, of course, is a common thread/concept in all musical idioms and one sadly missing in many Classical musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

marvluse

Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by marvluse » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:46 am

Tonit wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:55 am
Hi Erik,
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 pm
This forum is hosted in France, where the laws on copyrights are very strict. Mr. Delcamp has been warned by the French authorities that his forum will be shut down if it spreads illegal (=copyright violations) material. The moderators simply try to avoid being shut down. I hope you all understand Mr. Delcamp's position (he can't afford the costs of legal action against him) and the reason why we remove some videos.
I understand your details about the copyright in France.

I do not speak french that good, so I do not understand fully the Article L122-5 of French Copyright law, except that I can barely understood, from the notorious GoogleTranslate, that the first sentence reads:

Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :
(When the work has been divulged, the author can not prohibit:)


Then the list follows.

(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCo ... e=20190720)

According to some academic legal forums, this is equivalent of "fair use" list in other jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, as I have been kindly notified from moderators in this forum at times, the criteria to issue any such notification is simply "the author's death plus a certain number of years".

Can you kindly explain the relationship of the Article L122-5 and your criteria?

Thank you in advance.
Yeah, would not that not be nice? Of course, they cannot. None of them are legally astute, merely legally afraid. It is no different than fear of insects, snakes, or whatever. It is never based on reason, just mindless fear. So be it. They own the damn place, so they make the rules, however idiotic they seem to a rational human. :roll:

Cipher
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Cipher » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:17 am

Rognvald wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:54 pm
Also, his concept of "covert" chops is what we call in CG-- playing with a feel for the music. This, of course, is a common thread/concept in all musical idioms and one sadly missing in many Classical musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald

Hi Rognvald - Which classical musicians specifically are you referring to? Professional ones? for example Classical Guitarists? Pianists, Violinists? Conductors? Composers?

It's hard to to assess your comment without an example. All the classical concerts I went to this past year the musicians had a tremendous feeling for whichever music they played, be it Beethoven, Mozart, Stravinsky or Varese. So I find it hard to understand when you say classical musicians don't have a feel for the music and what criteria you're using to judge that. Thanks! :D

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:44 am

Tonit wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:55 am
Hi Erik,
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 pm
This forum is hosted in France, where the laws on copyrights are very strict. Mr. Delcamp has been warned by the French authorities that his forum will be shut down if it spreads illegal (=copyright violations) material. The moderators simply try to avoid being shut down. I hope you all understand Mr. Delcamp's position (he can't afford the costs of legal action against him) and the reason why we remove some videos.
I understand your details about the copyright in France.

I do not speak french that good, so I do not understand fully the Article L122-5 of French Copyright law, except that I can barely understood, from the notorious GoogleTranslate, that the first sentence reads:

Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :
(When the work has been divulged, the author can not prohibit:)


Then the list follows.

(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCo ... e=20190720)

According to some academic legal forums, this is equivalent of "fair use" list in other jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, as I have been kindly notified from moderators in this forum at times, the criteria to issue any such notification is simply "the author's death plus a certain number of years".

Can you kindly explain the relationship of the Article L122-5 and your criteria?

Thank you in advance.
It is our policy to protect Mr. Delcamp against legal action, and not to challenge the laws on legal property.
Reedition Domingo Esteso by Conde Hermanos 2004; Kenny Hill, model Barcelona 2001
"While you try to master classical guitar, prepare for a slave's life: the guitar will forever be your master and you its slave".

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rojarosguitar
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:25 am

:bravo: +1
Cipher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:30 pm
marvluse wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:45 pm


Yikes! Beware the copyright trolls that inhabit this site. Soon your link will be trashed and converted to meaningless instructions on how to locate it. :roll: :D

Please be careful calling our Delcamp Moderators trolls. Our moderators do us all a great service here by making sure the rules of this forum are followed. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of posting links to copyrighted music on this forum so the moderators don't have to remove them and put YouTube location instructions. Thanks! :D
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

Tonit
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:27 am

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:44 am
Tonit wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:55 am
Hi Erik,
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 pm
This forum is hosted in France, where the laws on copyrights are very strict. Mr. Delcamp has been warned by the French authorities that his forum will be shut down if it spreads illegal (=copyright violations) material. The moderators simply try to avoid being shut down. I hope you all understand Mr. Delcamp's position (he can't afford the costs of legal action against him) and the reason why we remove some videos.
I understand your details about the copyright in France.

I do not speak french that good, so I do not understand fully the Article L122-5 of French Copyright law, except that I can barely understood, from the notorious GoogleTranslate, that the first sentence reads:

Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :
(When the work has been divulged, the author can not prohibit:)


Then the list follows.

(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCo ... e=20190720)

According to some academic legal forums, this is equivalent of "fair use" list in other jurisdictions.

Meanwhile, as I have been kindly notified from moderators in this forum at times, the criteria to issue any such notification is simply "the author's death plus a certain number of years".

Can you kindly explain the relationship of the Article L122-5 and your criteria?

Thank you in advance.
It is our policy to protect Mr. Delcamp against legal action, and not to challenge the laws on legal property.
Thank you first of all for your response. Meanwhile your answer gives rise to some further questions.

YouTube has won their EU copyright filings, with its "content ID" capability in place and continually improving.

When we are including the YouTube link, it is not "downloadable" prima-facie unlike the infamous wawa-mania case where the nature of the forum was to share various copyrighted IPs in digital formats and thus in bad faith breach and infringe the right over the IPs, or aid or abet so to do, where "piracy" punitive sanctions may apply outside France, whereas some claim otherwise.

Meanwhile, the nature of this present forum appears to be highly educational/academic, giving free lessons for classical guitar learners and enthusiasts, or have discussions related to classical guitar composition/performance/luthery/repair, with no party with direct economic gain, and comprising commentary and possibly provided with copyrighted audio/visual material as reference the nature of which is solely to support any such that of educational/academic nature, which appears to qualify under the Article L122-5-10 or otherwise thereunder.

You are talking about the law:

1) When you or another moderator issues a notice to edit the direct links in question, you say "respect the law", to me who considers as per the foregoing, already respecting the law.

2) When you asnwer to my question, you discuss about "law", as is read "legal action" and "challenge the laws on legal property" without specifying the applicable codes or provisions.

Can you possibly specify your known or knowledgeable "laws" that possibly (according to you) constitute any such action, suit, sanctions or damage, as you claim "law" instead of "forum rule" in a very convincing manner everytime this "direct link" form rule has been discussed?

I did refer to the actual provisions under French law to establish my questions, even though I am not in the jurisdiction physically.

I think it is fair for us to know exactly which French provision(s) may apply to threat out of your moderators to instruct us "respect the law" and edit our posts.

Or, aren't we members simply following the "forum rules" unlike your claim that you have your legal basis that you can specify with the actual provisions?

Thank you again ahead of time.

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:38 am

Short answer: this is a private forum and Mr. Delcamp is personally liable for copyright violations, so we (members and moderators) are subject to his rules (as well as French law). I am not going to argue his rules, nor French law.

Whatever YouTube allows, has no validity on this forum.
Reedition Domingo Esteso by Conde Hermanos 2004; Kenny Hill, model Barcelona 2001
"While you try to master classical guitar, prepare for a slave's life: the guitar will forever be your master and you its slave".

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segobreawill
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by segobreawill » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:11 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:25 am
:bravo: +1
Cipher wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:30 pm
marvluse wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:45 pm


Yikes! Beware the copyright trolls that inhabit this site. Soon your link will be trashed and converted to meaningless instructions on how to locate it. :roll: :D

Please be careful calling our Delcamp Moderators trolls. Our moderators do us all a great service here by making sure the rules of this forum are followed. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of posting links to copyrighted music on this forum so the moderators don't have to remove them and put YouTube location instructions. Thanks! :D
And I have to add my +1 to that as well.

Tonit
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:23 pm

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:38 am
Short answer: this is a private forum and Mr. Delcamp is personally liable for copyright violations, so we (members and moderators) are subject to his rules (as well as French law). I am not going to argue his rules, nor French law.

Whatever YouTube allows, has no validity on this forum.
Thank you for brief answers all the way.

I am not argueing but questioning as a member.

I reinstate the question and incorporate the same, that I hope you could answer.

Can you provide the legal basis, that is to say, the specific provisions of the French law that you recurrently noted that we need to edit the direct links, because we need to "respect the law/copyright" that assumes that we are in violation already by sharing the link under the said law.

Or, again, can you specify once and for all, that, by following moderator instruction to edit direct links, we are following the forum rule, and not the French law; AND that we are in violation of the forum rules, and not the French law that you can hopefully specify as to which provisions that we are so in violations of any such provisions, if any, that you have been repeatedly noted as the base of any such instruction issued?

Thank you again and again but I am still waiting for your clear answer.

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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by simonm » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:04 pm

Tonit wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:23 pm
... we are following the forum rule ...
Yes. We are following forum rules. None of the moderators are lawyers and apart from Prof Delcamp, none of us are French either, so we play it safe.

For what it is worth:

In the link you posted we worry about this section:
Article L122-5 En savoir plus sur cet article...
Modifié par LOI n°2018-771 du 5 septembre 2018 - art. 81
Lorsque l'oeuvre a été divulguée, l'auteur ne peut interdire :

2° Les copies ou reproductions réalisées à partir d'une source licite et strictement réservées à l'usage privé du copiste et non destinées à une utilisation collective, …..

When anyone links to something on YouTube there is no guarantee that it is a "legal" source. By definition when something is published on the internet, here or on youtube or similar, it is not private and it IS for collective use. This section may be the equivalent of the "fair use" provision in other jurisdictions but the prohibition of utilisation collective is pretty explicit.

Hope that clears up our view point.

EDIT.
Thread unlocked again.

If anyone wants to discuss copyright law, I suggest finding a lawyers forum for the country in question, where people may have detailed knowledge and interest. Please stick to music here.

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What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by Rognvald » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:01 pm

"Hi Rognvald - Which classical musicians specifically are you referring to? Professional ones? for example Classical Guitarists? Pianists, Violinists? Conductors? Composers? " Cipher


Hi, Cipher,
Great question and now I really bit off a hunk of bistec! I'm going to try to keep this simple because I could write a book about my feelings on this subject.

Music is communication. Unless it is computer-generated, Music is created by human beings. If you are a human being who "plays" music, your music should be distinctive . . . just like the human voice. As a young arrogant person(who me?) in my youth, I believe I had a natural talent for performance and even at a young age, a unique sound/voice. At age 12, I played my first live performance(s) and no . .. I was NOT a child prodigy--I just had a feel for the music!

In fact, in my arrogance as a young person, I believed quite soon that I knew better than my teachers and after taking lessons for a short while on guitar and saxophone, I quit formal study and began working on my own. I obsessively listened to the musicians I Ioved in Jazz and R and B(at that time) and tried to emulate them while working with many different bands. It was in these early years that I realized that when we play a musical instrument we are, in fact, speaking with our own unique voice, albeit, through a musical instrument.

In my early twenties, I experienced some of the shortcomings of being largely self-taught and returned with a vengeance to study Classical performance(sax/flute) as well as Theory, Composition, and Arranging at the Chicago Musical College at Roosevelt University in Chicago as a non-degree student and it was at this time that I noticed there was a great deal of difference between the Classical guys at Roosevelt I was meeting and those I performed with musically.

The first thing I noticed was that when they talked, it was always about conquering this piece or that piece as if the music was a mountain or playing a certain difficult passage at a breakneck tempo. As they paraded their repertoire, it was always about its technical difficulty as a composition not as the beauty or magic of the composer's voice and what they could say in its performance. And, for the most part, it was not instrument-selective although I would say some of the violinists/cellists and one pianist did not fall into that pejorative category. And, as I advanced with my studies, I was even more convinced that Music is Communication, not gymnastics.

So, I could write a list of active CG's, Conductors, Composers, musicians, in general, who have achieved great success I do not like, but I would rather tell you who I do admire and consider musicians so that you can see, musically, where I fall:

Guitarists: Roland Dyens, Marcin Dylla, Yamandu Costa, Ricardo Gallen, Judicael Perroy, Pavel Steidel, Segovia, Per-Olav Kindgren, The Assads, Edson Lopes;

Pianists: Rubenstein,Freddy Kempf, Horowitz, Wilhelm Kempff; Violinists: Heifitz, Kreisler, Stern;

Cello: Casals, Rostropovich;

Conductors: Fritz Reiner, Bruno Walter, Furtwangler, Toscanini; Composers: Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Paganini, Tarrega, Villa Lobos, Sor, Mertz, Aguado, Ponce, Barrios, Albeniz, etc.

These are the voices that represent my concept of Music. I'm certain I missed a few but I think you will get a good idea of where I stand. I hope this answers your question, Cipher. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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RJVB
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Re: What the Hell is going on in France?

Post by RJVB » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:07 am

Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

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