Right hand technique: a new perspective

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Ortega
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Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Upon the suggestion and with the blessing of moderators, I have created this new thread.

First, my many detractors must be informed that I have just radically altered one aspect of my recent discovery.

Yesterday, I discovered that my assertion that the tip joint is the sole activator of the pluck is in fact false. All of the other core axioms stand.

"Tip joint as sole activator" is now replaced with "all 3 joints work together, simultaneously" in order to displace the string precisely as I describe in this new video, which I created yesterday.

This single change to my discovery allows core axioms of it to work perfectly, as well as to square/ justify/ merge the discovery with the teachings of so many others.

I want to be clear, however: there is no doubt that what I have discovered is absolutely "new" in a number of ways, both in terms of presentation and in terms of the direction that teachers almost universally dictate that the fingertip must travel.

They all warn against pulling "up" on the string. The fact is that we MUST pull precisely towards the large/ main knuckle joint...and to an extraordinary degree, in fact. But this must happen exactly as described in this specific new (and quite different in one crucial way) clip. If not, the result is dysfunction.

What's incredible here is that the end result, *when done correctly*, is that the laws of physics and geometry will dictate that the string will be directed down, into the top of the instrument, which is what we desire.

"There is no new thing under the sun."

True, this. But sometimes, describing something and identifying it's true inner workings correctly and with precision is itself a new phenomenon, even if the described process has itself been around from the beginning.

That is precisely the case here:


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Christopher Langley
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:52 pm

I love your posts and videos Ortega.

I specifically enjoy your detailed explanations and examples, they tend to agree with my own experiences when it comes to my RH technique. You think about things with the RH that I do and take for granted, but never thought much about.

Looking and sounding really good to me man. I feel that you are really getting that right hand down pat.
Cordoba CP110

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:03 am

Thank you so much.

Here is a progress update:

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:22 am

Double post.

New clip replaces original in above post.

Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:35 pm

Do you have any facilities for slowing down the brief section of tremolo that you attached? I think that would be both helpful and instructive.

Paul

johnd
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by johnd » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:00 pm

Crofty wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:35 pm
Do you have any facilities for slowing down the brief section of tremolo that you attached? I think that would be both helpful and instructive.

Paul
If you play it on YouTube you can go to settings and control the speed.

kmurdick
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by kmurdick » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:13 pm

Gitbox hasn't chimed in yet, but he will. I agree that if you watch a well coordinated stroke, the tip seems to aiming toward the knuckle joint. There are two problems with you explanation.

1) Your ideas, even if they are true, don't seem to be working for you. You have no velocity / fluency.
2) It is clear from the 100 pages of gitbox's video thread that fluent strokes don't work that way you describe.

Starting at the point in free stroke where tip is touching the string, the middle joint and knuckle joint are flexing together, but the instant the tip is no longer on the string (i.e.the string has been plucked), the knuckle joint begins its extension, during which the middle joint continues its flexion. The knuckle joint then completes its full extension before the middle joint completes it's full extension at which time the knuckle joint begins its flexion toward the string to make the next stroke. The middle joint finishes its full extension just in time to bring the tip to rest on the string for the next stroke. In summary, it's an elliptical motion where all the flexion is voluntary, and all the the extension is involuntary. The involuntary part is often referred to as "natural release".

Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:25 pm

johnd

Thanks for the reply. I was really thinking of ortega when I posed the question. For myself the problems seem pretty clear.

In general I think many classical guitarists tend to over-think the right hand. The shape of the hand and action of the fingers should be very natural. In fact it's very similar for most musical instruments.

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:40 pm

Just made this clip:

It's going so much better than ever. Will try to get full Recuerdos recorded in the next week or so.

I know it still has a gallop. That will be eradicated, mark my words.

Tip joint is key, but I realize that I am in fact activating all three joints in equal measure, and simultaneously so.

I'm beginning always from feather light placement status, and I've learned that I must ensure that the tip joint is protracted (relaxed "out", away from the palm) prior to each pluck.

When I fail or neglect to use any one or more of the three joints actively and simultaneously, with any pluck of i, m or a, the entire system breaks down.

It's most easy to neglect one of the joints in the case of the i finger especially, due to its location adjacent to p.

My focus on the tip joint has perhaps been due to the evolution of my understanding that all 3 joints must be actively used, including the tip joint.

Aaron Shearer did talk about all 3 joints moving in the same direction. This is false, even though we are in fact actively attempting to contract all 3 joints simultaneously.

The main knuckle joint is moving away from the palm during the pluck, in spite of the fact that we are applying contractive work to it.

This is akin to the loser in an arm wrestling match; his bicep is in fact extending, however, he is applying contractive work to it. It's just that the other force external to him (his stronger competitor) is counteracting said work, to the extent that *extension* of his bicep results, as opposed to contraction.

Our main knuckle joint actually extends at the moment the pluck, in spite of the fact that it is receiving contractive work as is applied to it, this is equally the case with the smaller two joints: all three, in equal measure.

The reason that the main joint extends in spite of the contractive work that is being applied to it is because the main knuckle joint is as "the loser in the arm wrestling match", with the smaller 2 joints "winning", due to the fact that they outnumber the main knuckle joint by a ratio of 2 to 1 and the string is counteracting the forces applied to itntonthe extent that sonething in the system must "give".

Since the main knuckle joint is the point at which the finger is joined to the hand, the forces involved conspire to the extent that two parts if the system "give": the string, which becomes disturbed (and is thus plucked) and the main knuckle joint, which extends, in spite of the contractive work that is applied to it.

Each finger must be completely relaxed and returned to its zero point, AKA "wet noodle" status prior to proceeding on to the next right hand event, regardless of tempo.

Rest stroke and free stroke employ the same exact approach. The only thing that changes with rest stroke is the orientation of the hand, such that the follow through of the rest stroke is artificially terminated at the adjacent string.

The proof is in the pudding. Full Recuerdos clip incoming very soon...

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:10 pm

This one is better still, I think. Full explanation in my previous post:


Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:32 pm

Excerpts from a certain other piece...

I am calling the problem "pedagogically induced musician's focal dystonia", finally self-cured as of today.

Brand new (for me) right hand technique approach, applied as of just today.

Rhythm issues are not due to a lack of understanding on my part. I am applying a brand new approach still being adjusted to..


Ceciltguitar
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ceciltguitar » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:00 pm

Thank you for sharing your ideas and the videos!! The visual presentation on the videos demonstrates the principle of achieving maximum effect using minimum motion.

What is the title and who is the composer of the gorgeous piece in drop D tuning? Thank you.

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:44 pm

Ceciltguitar wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:00 pm
Thank you for sharing your ideas and the videos!! The visual presentation on the videos demonstrates the principle of achieving maximum effect using minimum motion.

What is the title and who is the composer of the gorgeous piece in drop D tuning? Thank you.
It's actually in an open c# minor tuning, Koyunbaba by Domeniconi. Thank you!

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:49 pm

Please ignore "amendment" in first post on thread. A breakthrough last evening completely vindicates my original discovery of 9-9-17, which is clearly expressed below:

Note: 36 years of playing flat wrong left me with a dystonic i finger; the tip joint tends to contract early and I was holding tension permanently on the i finger, failing to release the largest segment during (not after!) The pluck itself, which is necessary and makes all the difference.

Since my discovery, which I have second guessd a million times since that amazing day, I had still been holding the largest segment of my i finger in toward the palm, artificially and unnaturally, at all times.

Yesterday I made a conscious effort to focus only on the i finger and literally (and aggressively/ with conviction) yank the i finger's string straight towards the i finger's own main knuckle joint, activating only the tip joint of i to do so, *ensuring that the largest segment of the i finger kicks up/ out away from the palm as far as is natural for it to do so, during each and every stroke if i itself.

My original discovery of 9-9-17, 10:45am central time U.S. works perfectly and shall stand forever! :)

Discovery was/ is:

Tip joint is sole activator of pluck, aiming plucking finger's tip precisely towards plucking finger's own main/ large knuckle joint as its intended target. Simultaneously relax the middle and main joints.

This results in simultaneous passive contraction at the middle joint and simultaneous passive extension at the main knuckle joint.

All movement at middle and main joints is sympathetic and passive, during the pluck. This passive movement at the larger two joints occurs as the result of the tip joint's contractive trajectory being so narrow and immediate that it attempts to direct the string straight towards the plucking finger's own main knuckle joint as its intended target.

Due to the laws of physics and geometry, what actually happens is that the string is directed downward, into the top of the instrument. This is true only if we execute precisely as I describe.

This entire process must occur only with the finger having been presented to the string with the most feather light possible touch from the main knuckle joint, which does in fact desist completely at the moment of pluck.

The most important (and difficult) finger to do this correctly and consistently with is the i finger due to its location adjacent to p and due to the fact that the i finger is the neurological leader of m and a.

There is a clear symbiotic relationship between the lightness of the presentation of the finger to the string and the tightness or narrowness or immediacy of the tip joint's contractive trajectory during that joint's sole activation.

"Lightness and tightness, a symbiotic relationship".

Rest stroke and free stroke employ the same technique; the only thing that changes with rest stroke is the orientation of the hand, such that the follow through the rest stroke is artificially terminated at the adjacent string.

36 years of playing flat wrong left me with a dystonic i finger, which also showed up as symptoms within other fingers. The I finger is the culprit and the one to watch.

Videos with definitive proof are on the way.

Scott Johnston

SteveL123
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:08 pm

Scott,

Great job and determination in overcoming adversity from hand surgery and dystonia! Can you make a few of videos with a metronome set 5X slower than the tempo you played RDLA at? Then gradually increase the tempo. I am curios if you can get rid of the gallop between P and i at a slower tempo.

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