Right hand technique: a new perspective

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Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:09 pm

This is the cornerstone axiom that opened the floodgates:

36 years of playing flat wrong...I was holding tension permanently on the i finger, failing to release the largest segment during (not after!) The pluck itself, which is necessary and makes all the difference!

**we must ensure that the i finger's largest segment is relaxed out away from the palm to futhest extent that it's natural for it to be so, both before and [at the moment of/ as caused by] the pluck, not after the pluck itself. The only reason that largest segment comes in toward the palm at all is to get the finger to the string, but during the pluck itself the largest segment must again kick away from the palm which is also where it must be before the pluck.

99% attention to the i finger, and the i finger alone in all of this. Use tip joint to aim the string toward the i finger's own main/ large knuckle joint and simultaneously let the largest segment of i kick away from the palm to furthest extent that it is natural to do so... and we're cured; IF we direct the string precisely and accurately towards the i finger's own main/ large knuckle joint by activating only the tip joint to do so and simultaneously relax the middle and main joints...

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:07 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:08 pm
Scott,

Great job and determination in overcoming adversity from hand surgery and dystonia! Can you make a few of videos with a metronome set 5X slower than the tempo you played RDLA at? Then gradually increase the tempo. I am curios if you can get rid of the gallop between P and i at a slower tempo.
Gallop still there, but getting smaller...it's mainly there now during left hand shifts, which is a separate issue.

Thanks for the encouragement, and good luck to you!

Also I have a summer head cold, a bit congested, sorry for that:
Last edited by Ortega on Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:36 pm

Double post.

Ceciltguitar
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Location: Virginia

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ceciltguitar » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:19 pm

It's been years since I heard Koyunbaba........I didn't recognize the excerpt. Thank you!

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:32 pm

A little better, with important observations here:


Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:51 pm

Ceciltguitar wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:00 pm
Thank you for sharing your ideas and the videos!! The visual presentation on the videos demonstrates the principle of achieving maximum effect using minimum motion.

What is the title and who is the composer of the gorgeous piece in drop D tuning? Thank you.
I just realize that you may not have been referring to the Koyunbaba excerpt, but rather to this piece which I attach here, once unprofessionally (with my phone) and again "semi-professionally" (much better mics) at my recent wedding reception.

I am posting both because I hit a couple of wrong bass notes at the wedding reception performance, so I'd like to include the unprofessional one to reference the correct bass notes.

Both recordings were made with a rather legendary guitar, a storied 1978 Jose Ramirez 1a formerly known as "Holy Grail", which I recently acquired. I've renamed her "Sheila Marie" after my beautiful bride. The notes bloom out of this instrument like no instrument I've ever heard or touched.

This is an arrangement of a piece that I made for my wife at her request for when she proceeded down the aisle. I recorded it and looped it for that purpose, then played it again live at the reception. If you would like the music feel free to PM me and I will send it to you via email

The wrong bass notes are D's, Should have been G's. I hit that wrong bass note twice in the wedding reception recording, but at least the sound is better. There is a cable coming from the guitar but it is not amplified. I elected at the last moment to not use the amplifier; I'm so thankful that I made that decision.

Now, if only I hadn't hit those wrong bass notes!😣

Overall, the non-wedding reception version is better, I suppose, as a reference at least:




SteveL123
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by SteveL123 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:35 pm


Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:46 pm

Ortega "I know it still has a gallop. That will be eradicated, mark my words."

I am puzzled as to how that will happen.

If your playing is rhythmically uneven - which you appear to acknowledge it is - and you continue to practice with that same irregularity, then why will it suddenly [or even gradually] become even?

Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:56 pm

By the way, I think that, when analysing how fingers operate most efficiently, AT SPEED, we can't do much better than consider how a non-guitarist - in fact, a non-musician - would naturally drum their finger tips on a table top or any other flat surface.

I would suggest that pretty close to 100% of them would move from the main knuckle joint only, with each finger maintaining an identical curvature throughout a minimal movement arc.

If the aim is speed then one could ask oneself why they would choose any other method

Tremeggio
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Tremeggio » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:04 am

Crofty wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:56 pm
By the way, I think that, when analysing how fingers operate most efficiently, AT SPEED, we can't do much better than consider how a non-guitarist - in fact, a non-musician - would naturally drum their finger tips on a table top or any other flat surface.

I would suggest that pretty close to 100% of them would move from the main knuckle joint only, with each finger maintaining an identical curvature throughout a minimal movement arc.

If the aim is speed then one could ask oneself why they would choose any other method

Analysing my own playing I think most of the finger joint movement is from the knuckle with some from middle and none from the tip joint. I agree for speed more knuckle movement is better


Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:27 pm

Just another brief observation following the "floodgates" theory of complex finger movements: if you try to "run" individual fingertips, pairs [or any combination of rh fingers] across your lh palm, whilst attempting to do so at maximum speed, it is quite clear that the prime mover is the main knuckle joint. The inward and outward trajectory is identical of course.

Conversely, if you try complex, "bicycling" movements, engaging all joints and unnecessarily lifting the fingertips, it is utterly clear that speed [and I would argue, accuracy of tip placement] is hugely reduced and inhibited. This, of course, leaves aside the negative effect on tone and volume, if using this method to pluck a guitar string.

Generally speaking it is best, in my opinion and experience, to stick to the most natural actions when using basic motor skills. There are quite enough other problems to deal with.

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:09 pm

Crofty wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:46 pm
Ortega "I know it still has a gallop. That will be eradicated, mark my words."

I am puzzled as to how that will happen.

If your playing is rhythmically uneven - which you appear to acknowledge it is - and you continue to practice with that same irregularity, then why will it suddenly [or even gradually] become even?
Everyone needs to bear in mind that I could not play a single note for many years. Well, maybe a single note. And then, my hand would clench up and I was DONE.

True, crippling dystonia.

What I am able to do now, while still very poor, is a miracle.

The gap between i and p is a technique issue, still working on eliminating the final vestiges of my dystonia.

The gap shall be eliminated, and my next post will be delayed until that happens! :)

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Christopher Langley
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Christopher Langley » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:56 pm

How did/are you going about getting over the dystonia Ortega? Very intrigued.
My name is mud.

Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:16 am

Hi Scott,

Good luck with what you are trying to do. My responses were really aimed at anyone who might be tempted to follow the path you are describing.

Of course, only you knows your own situation so if you feel what you are doing is working for you then that is great.

Paul

Ortega
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Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:09 pm

The "trifecta" of right hand mastery:

The i finger is the cornerstone and the epicenter of the entire right hand system.

1. Lightness of placement of i on its string

2. Tightness/ narrowness/ immediacy of the i finger's tip joint's contractive trajectory during that joint's sole activation

* a clear symbiotic relationship exists between the above 2 axioms

3. Absolute assurance that each and every time the i finger is used, the i finger's tip joint's activation actually CAUSES the i finger's largest segment to kick out away from the palm to its original "zero point", or point of total relaxation...simultaneous with the pluck of i...NOT after it.

We must not forget to focus on the crucial symbiotic relationship that exists between the lightness of the placement of the finger on its string and the tightness, or narrowness, or immediacy of the tip joint's contractive trajectory during that joint's sole activation.

*A sticky piece of dust that is stuck up on the underside of the i finger's nail is being flung straight up, through the sole activation of the tip joint of i.... straight up so that it sticks upon the inside of the i finger's own large/ main knuckle joint.*

This occurs always and only from the most feather light placement possible and is combined with the absolute assurance that we are simultaneously allowing the largest segment of i to kick out, away from the palm, to the fullest extent possible.

In fact it is as if the pluck itself is causing the i finger's largest segment to kick out away from the palm to the fullest extent possible/ as is natural.

Since my discovery, which I have second guessed a million times since that amazing day, I had still been holding the largest segment of my i finger in toward the palm, artificially and unnaturally, at all times.

Yesterday I made a conscious effort to focus only on the i finger and literally (and aggressively/ with conviction) yank the i finger's string straight towards the i finger's own main knuckle joint, activating only the tip joint of i to do so, *ensuring that the largest segment of the i finger kicks up/ out away from the palm as far as is natural for it to do so, DURING (not after!) each and every stroke if i itself.

*During the tip joint's action, not after, the largest segment of i must return "out" to its "zero point", its position of relaxation, away from the palm. This unleashes the right hand in all scenarios, both free stroke and rest stroke. Note that the i finger's largest segment's "zero point" is further out, away from the palm, than we are often accustomed to:

My original discovery of 9-9-17, 10:45am central time U.S. works perfectly and shall stand forever! :)

Discovery was/ is:

Tip joint is sole activator of pluck, aiming plucking finger's tip precisely towards plucking finger's own main/ large knuckle joint as its intended target. Simultaneously relax the middle and main joints.

This results in simultaneous passive contraction at the middle joint and simultaneous passive extension at the main knuckle joint.

All movement at middle and main joints is sympathetic and passive, during the pluck. This passive movement at the larger two joints occurs as the result of the tip joint's contractive trajectory being so narrow and immediate that it attempts to direct the string straight towards the plucking finger's own main knuckle joint as its intended target.

Due to the laws of physics and geometry, what actually happens is that the string is directed downward, into the top of the instrument. This is true only if we execute precisely as I describe.

This entire process must occur only with the finger having been presented to the string with the most feather light possible touch from the main knuckle joint, which does in fact desist completely at the moment of pluck.

The most important (and difficult) finger to do this correctly and consistently with is the i finger due to its location adjacent to p and due to the fact that the i finger is the neurological leader of m and a.

There is a clear symbiotic relationship between the lightness of the presentation of the finger to the string and the tightness or narrowness or immediacy of the tip joint's contractive trajectory during that joint's sole activation.

"Lightness and tightness, a symbiotic relationship".

Rest stroke and free stroke employ the same technique; the only thing that changes with rest stroke is the orientation of the hand, such that the follow through the rest stroke is artificially terminated at the adjacent string.

36 years of playing flat wrong left me with a dystonic i finger, which also showed up as symptoms within other fingers. The i finger is the potential cog in the works due to its location adjacent to p, and it is also the neurological leader of m and a, thus its perfect adherence to all of these axioms is crucial.
Last edited by Ortega on Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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