Right hand technique: a new perspective

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Ortega
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:25 pm

Final and complete. Mission accomplished:

Now, at long last, I am free to learn more music and hone it for performance.

Again, I'm not saying that this is good playing. Not the point. I do promise you this:

It shall become good. I will not rest until it is.

My original discovery of 9-9-17 at 10:45am central time, U.S, stands. This is proven in the attached clip (seeing that I could not play beyond one note prior to discovery) and is corroborated by many great players, 2 of whom I have named in this thread. The others still request anonymity, but they will likely go public one day. Their numbers are growing each day.

Soundminer
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:42 am

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Soundminer » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:47 am

facepalm...

Good sir, please, just read KevinCollins immaculate post over and over again !! Also, a little gratitude towards posts like his or lack there of says a lot about you as a person in my opinion. You need to relax and stop it with the grandeur if you want to become better. People are trying to help you and you don't even seem to notice, or care.

If you do that, just maybe you will realize everything you are looking for or think to have found is in there..
And it's nothing new under the sun !!

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:54 pm

ortega

"Again, I'm not saying that this is good playing."

No, you're right, it's not.

But what puzzles me - and maybe others - is what the point is in accompanying your talk of "discoveries" and "axioms" with playing that doesn't demonstrate them in any way?

If you were to show, in detailed slow motion, exactly what it is that you have discovered, then we would all be in a better position to judge just how effective it might be. Playing a new version of an uneven tremolo every time doesn't really help your case Scott!

Cheers,

Paul

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:04 pm

Soundminer wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:47 am
facepalm...

Good sir, please, just read KevinCollins immaculate post over and over again !! Also, a little gratitude towards posts like his or lack there of says a lot about you as a person in my opinion.
I don't think that it is particularly necessary to respond to every post though I agree that if you have made some [hopefully] helpful suggestions it's useful for everybody involved to get some feedback - whether to agree or disagree.

I've never been a fan of the special finger movements apparently required for tremolo that Richard Provost advises and that Kevin supports. To me it over complicates something that is essentially very simple.

Our fingers are in their mid-range position when at rest. If you tap [a table top for example] with one finger, very slowly then the return impulse from the extensors is fairly slight: the finger tip may be quite "happy" remaining on the table for a while.

However the FASTER that movement is made then the quicker the return that follows. It is an automatic reaction - almost as though the finger has received a small electric shock; and it is quite difficult to inhibit.

Plus, of course, if we want to play at speed, and use alternation to do so more efficiently, then it seems fairly obvious that the automatic return is something to encourage, not something to suppress. Yet suppressing that instinctive reaction is precisely what Provost advocates.

Tremolo technique, at it's fundamental level, is simply finger alternation; but it is actually made easier than would be the case with scales because for the most part one is alternating on a single string for quite long passages.

Ergo, in my view, anyone who has mastered basic alternation of all the possible variants of i, m and a, whilst observing and encouraging the natural return impulse of each individual finger, should have no more of a problem with tremolo than with any other alternation technique.

And when I say ALL variants I am including single fingers [a useful way to practice tremolo by the way] and all possible combinations. I actually vary typical tremolo slightly by playing m with p. So I would play p and m together, followed by a,m,i. That means the fingers are alternating as follows: m,a,m,i etc.

Although I practice that method, when playing a tremolo piece I would generally only add the m finger with the thumb at the beginnings of bars or when there is melodic movement.

One advantage is that, by highlighting the melody in this way, one can set a slower tempo than is typically the case. I tend to listen to the inside notes more to determine tempo. So, for example, the six note accompaniment to RDLA suggests to me a rather slower tempo than is typical. Limosnita slightly faster and Omagh faster again.

[Those are the only three I have played. The usual guitarist's lament - so much music, so little time....]

Paul

ps It's worth working out a really effective fingering solution for just the RDLA accompaniment and, once you can play it, either sing the melody over it or ask someone who plays a sustaining instrument [violin, oboe whatever] to play it.

What is absolutely essential though, with an exercise like this, is to treat the accompaniment with complete musical respect!

SteveL123
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Ortega wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:25 pm
Final and complete. Mission accomplished:

Now, at long last, I am free to learn more music and hone it for performance.

Again, I'm not saying that this is good playing. Not the point. I do promise you this:

It shall become good. I will not rest until it is.

(.................................)
Hey Scott, The non tremolo piece sounds great! Kudos coming back from not able to play more than one note. You have certainly come a long way. Congatulations!

Your tremolo, however, has seen no improvement IMO. It still has a distinctive gallop to my ears, due to a pause between p and m (if you are playing pmai). a finger is also very faint in volume compared to the other fingers.

I have slowed down your playing of RDLA 75% and made a video of it. Do you hear what I am talking about?


Ortega
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:24 pm

Is this out of acceptable range of evenness?

Even John Williams has a slight gap between i and p.

I understand that I am nowhere near him; just saying, all players have a very slight gallop.

So...is this totally unacceptable? I understand it's not perfect. I want to know if it is within acceptable range:


Ortega
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:28 pm

Ortega wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:24 pm
Is this out of acceptable range of evenness?

Even John Williams has a slight gap between i and p.

I understand that I am nowhere near him; just saying, all players have a very slight gallop.

So...is this totally unacceptable? I understand it's not perfect. I want to know if it is within acceptable range:

Also, I will respond to the very kind posts previous to this one, soon. I do appreciate all! I just need to get a feel for what people truly have to say about this clip before I do so.

Thanks to all,

Scptt

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Scott

The idea that there is an "acceptable" level of unevenness wouldn't endear you to an orchestra or it's conductor!

Also it's simply not the case that "all players have a very slight gallop." They don't.

If you really are looking for advice/suggestions/opinions then I suggest demonstrating something like a simple scale at a slow speed - perhaps around a quarter note @ 69 to 76 bpm. You seem very adept at sound recording and that would allow both yourself and others to both see and hear what is going on.

If you play A major, string 3 to 1, then you can simply play p on the open 5th whilst ami take the upper notes - but anything would do really. The idea is to remove the distraction of a lovely piece of music and ONLY focus on your rh fingers. The evenness needs to be in volume, tone and - of course - time.

You could actually start more slowly - perhaps 1/16th notes @ circa 96 bpm.

SteveL123
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:11 pm

Ortega wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:24 pm
Is this out of acceptable range of evenness?

Even John Williams has a slight gap between i and p.

I understand that I am nowhere near him; just saying, all players have a very slight gallop.

So...is this totally unacceptable? I understand it's not perfect. I want to know if it is within acceptable range:

Hi Scott,

It most definitely is out of acceptable range, IMO. Use a metronome! Metronomes don't lie.

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Hi Scott - and a ps.

Had a second thought as I took my two little dogs - Rosie and Daisie - for their last run around the garden.

I would normally advise open strings for the rather more complicated rh approach which follows [others have also mentioned this in other threads.]

Play four bars in 5/8, slowly, loudly and - initially - putting weight on each successive first beat. The pattern is Amipa/ Mipam/Ipami/Pamip. You could try this on the palm of your hand first. Basically amip with a shifting accent.

It's important that you begin with the A finger so that from the start you are listening out for the A, M, I sequence and also that you don't hear and feel a continuously repeated four note sequence that is initiated by the thumb. It's precisely that - plus playing too fast - that encourages, and actually helps develop, the "gallop".

What this does is to eliminate the typical "tid -uh-ly-pom" gallop that a lot of players develop. Maybe you have tried this idea before. If not then it takes some adjusting to at the beginning.

Even after many years it's something I still do. Technical work [which is what this is] benefits sometimes from being separate from an actual piece of music.

If you do try this at all then obviously you can gradually add lh chords and make it a slightly more "musical" experience.

Paul

SteveL123
Posts: 1431
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Here's a short clip of Parkening's RDLA.

Normal speed, then slowed 75%. There's no discernable gallop.


kmurdick
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by kmurdick » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:11 pm

Crofty says: "Plus, of course, if we want to play at speed, and use alternation to do so more efficiently, then it seems fairly obvious that the automatic return is something to encourage, not something to suppress. Yet suppressing that instinctive reaction is precisely what Provost advocates."

Are you sure about Provost "not" advocating a full (or at at least partial) natural return? Provost told me that his hand doc (a student, apparently) said to him that the natural return was necessary in order to avoid fatigue. BTW, Orteg's big problem is his over flexed knuckle joint. He should keep it at mid-range.

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Crofty » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:45 pm

Hi Kent

I was taking Kevin Collins' description of Provost's method as being accurate.

i.e. "In the tremolo, the fingers play in a natural sequence. The fingers come out and a goes the string. a plays, drawing m to the string. m plays, joining a in the hand, drawing i to the string, and i plays, joining m and a in the hand, and p goes to the string. Then it starts again, p plays and a, m, i come out together and a goes to the string. I didn't make it up, they just work this way, if you let them. That's why it's called "sequencing", with the minimum number of steps."

For me the minimum number of steps is one: after each fingertip pushes through the string it automatically rebounds. That's really all there is to it.

Why set up a special "tremolo method" if, in other areas of rh technique, one accepts natural return as the ideal?

I agree with your last comment of course.

Ortega
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by Ortega » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:18 pm

Today is the 1 year anniversary of the discovery.

It is appropriate that today I have finally found what it was that was making the tremolo gallop. :)

There is much that is explained in this clip. If you view it in its entirety all will be clarified.

This is not about me; it is for all of us.

Soon I will respond to the recent posts on this thread. I want to give each post the time and attention that it deserves.

Thank you all so much for being patient with me.

Your friend and colleague,

Scott

musikai
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:32 am
Location: Augsburg, Germany

Re: Right hand technique: a new perspective

Post by musikai » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:00 pm

"The i-finger is the epicenter and cornerstone of the entire right hand system."
Not the i-finger but the invisible energy ball that you are holding within your hand.
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