Schubert voice and guitar

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Tonyyyyy
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Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Tonyyyyy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:59 pm

Need to share this beautiful rendition


Piano is great - but guitar is equally good and we know that Schubert played one.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm

Tonyyyyy wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:59 pm
Need to share this beautiful rendition ...
Piano is great - but guitar is equally good and we know that Schubert played one.
Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
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SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:49 am

I sang some of Die Schone Mullerin in college. I see that there are several editions arranged for guitar and voice. Those songs seem like they would lend themselves to guitar accompaniment pretty well.
Last edited by SleepyheadRooster on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best,
Chuck

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erichert
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by erichert » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:16 pm

Wonderful. The guitar part is great, but the singer really steals the show for me. He seems like a young talent to watch!

jscott

Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by jscott » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:29 am

Wow! More Schubert, guitar and voice please. A few of my favorite things.

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Peter Lovett
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Peter Lovett » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:08 am

Fantastic find. Thank you for posting.
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muirtan
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by muirtan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:37 am

jscott wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:29 am
Wow! More Schubert, guitar and voice please. A few of my favorite things.
Hi scott have you seen this thread from a couple of years ago https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... g#p1158230

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sxedio
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by sxedio » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:24 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm

Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
Indeed, here's our older discussion on the subject https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... 6&start=15 and of course there's a very thorough essay on Stephen's website.

Cool interpretation in the video by the way from both singer and guitarist, and good balance.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:06 am

sxedio wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:24 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm

Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
Indeed, here's our older discussion on the subject https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... 6&start=15 and of course there's a very thorough essay on Stephen's website.
...
Thanks sxedio for reminding me (!) ... here is the link for anybody interested. Originally written in 1996 for the bi-centeniary, refreshed in 2006-7.

http://jacaranda-music.com/Schubert.html
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
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Tonyyyyy
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Tonyyyyy » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:40 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:06 am


Thanks sxedio for reminding me (!) ... here is the link for anybody interested. Originally written in 1996 for the bi-centeniary, refreshed in 2006-7.

http://jacaranda-music.com/Schubert.html
Great essay! its so easy to assume that "common knowledge" is true. I still want to hope he played a guitar in bed though :lol:

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Tonyyyyy
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Tonyyyyy » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:52 am

SleepyheadRooster wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:49 am
I sang some of Die Schone Mullerin in college. I see that there are several editions arranged for guitar and voice. Those songs seem like they would lend themselves to guitar accompaniment pretty well.
I think so . A modern piano is louder than a Schubert era piano, and it must be nice for the singer to not strain to keep up with the volume of a grand piano (let alone a modern orchestra). What was your experience?

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:18 am

Tonyyyyy wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:52 am
SleepyheadRooster wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:49 am
I sang some of Die Schone Mullerin in college. I see that there are several editions arranged for guitar and voice. Those songs seem like they would lend themselves to guitar accompaniment pretty well.
I think so . A modern piano is louder than a Schubert era piano, and it must be nice for the singer to not strain to keep up with the volume of a grand piano (let alone a modern orchestra). What was your experience?
Well, my experience was as a young, not-so-serious tenor. I did have a good accompaniest on piano. I don’t remember keeping up with the volume being a problem. I don’t think I sang particularly well as I was much more interested in other things at the time. Something I regret. But of the music I sang in college, this was my favorite. The accompaniment often bubbles along like the water in the story - something a guitar can communicate very well.
Best,
Chuck

PeteJ
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by PeteJ » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:13 pm

I'm hanging on to the idea that Franz played guitar partly because he liked it and would naturally do so, and also because his accompaniments are often guitaristic. but I've learnt from Stephen not be too sure about this. It's not just the note-patterns but also the harmonies, which sometimes seem uncharacteristic for pianist-composers and more like something a guitarist would do. This may be confirmation-bias. If wonder what Stephen would make of my argument.

I liked this recording at first but not so much as time went on. It seems churlish to say so but for me the guitar could be more discreet during the vocal and expand into the vocal breaks. It often carries on regardless during vocal entries and exits. This wouldn't do for a pop mix. Is this being picky or would anyone else agree? It is as if the vocal is pasted on top of the guitar. As a consequence the vocal is less attention-grabbing when it enters and likewise the guitar when the vocal exits. Nobody ever takes charge. The result a monotone and uneventful performance that for me becomes dull and worthy rather quickly.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:13 pm
I'm hanging on to the idea that Franz played guitar partly because he liked it and would naturally do so, and also because his accompaniments are often guitaristic. but I've learnt from Stephen not be too sure about this. It's not just the note-patterns but also the harmonies, which sometimes seem uncharacteristic for pianist-composers and more like something a guitarist would do. This may be confirmation-bias. If wonder what Stephen would make of my argument.
Well there isn't a shred of actual evidence that he really did, and I wouldn't go with something just because I like the idea of it (which originally, I did, assuming prior to investigation that the story was true.)
I've never heard a piano accompanist complain that Schubert's piano parts are not pianistic, conversely, modern arrangements for guitar always seem to be really hard work, akin to solo pieces (the video is a good example). I used the Tecla edition which makes modern versions of the songs published contemporaneously with guitar alternatives, and they take real work. Btw the reason the updated versions were made was that it was deemed the historical ones were simplified beyond acceptability - but I've not seen the originals to take a view of this.
It may be confirmation bias, Pete, but it may also be that Schubert was extremely good at writing songs, wrote a huge number of them, and found that effective piano parts meant a lightness and clarity of texture that could seem guitaristic, even though there is no way he wrote literally hundreds of songs actually for guitar, yet we have no actual evidence for this, rather, it all points the other way.
One specific idiomatic point; the one thing we know Schubert wrote for guitar is the Father's Names Day piece*, and while lots of it is quite idiomatic, there is one bit that really doesn't work within the same idiomatic range (see my article for full discussion), which suggests to me that he was able to write for it because he had a phenomenally good ear, and had learnt what works by hearing guitar players around him - which we know existed, including his flatmate at one point. I don't think an actual player would have made that mistake, given that alternatives exist.
(* Zur Namensfeier des Vaters D80 can be found on YT - ironically, only with piano :roll: )
PeteJ wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:13 pm
I liked this recording at first but not so much as time went on. It seems churlish to say so but for me the guitar could be more discreet during the vocal and expand into the vocal breaks. It often carries on regardless during vocal entries and exits. This wouldn't do for a pop mix. Is this being picky or would anyone else agree? It is as if the vocal is pasted on top of the guitar. As a consequence the vocal is less attention-grabbing when it enters and likewise the guitar when the vocal exits. Nobody ever takes charge. The result a monotone and uneventful performance that for me becomes dull and worthy rather quickly.
I don't have a problem with the performance. I kept moaning at the videography.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

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sxedio
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by sxedio » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:48 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:13 pm
I'm hanging on to the idea that Franz played guitar partly because he liked it and would naturally do so, and also because his accompaniments are often guitaristic.
I guess we are so used to the Carulli, Sor, Giuliani, Carcassi etc. musical language on the guitar that even when I hear e.g. Clementi or Haydn I think it sounds a bit guitaristic :)
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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