Carles Trepat

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kirolak
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Carles Trepat

Post by kirolak » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:14 pm

I hope this is not hubris on my part, I am so excited to find that this wonderful musician plays the Bach Sarabande BMV 1002 in the same positions as I have been practising it in (grammar?)- I was quite disappointed in other performances, & thought I must be wrong or mad to use such "complicated" fingering/positions, but here it is by the great master:



Now I just have to try to sound like him (haha!) perhaps in my next life. . . . :D

RobMacKillop
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:21 pm

He's playing (I think) Tárrega's arrangement. In other words, he is showing how a late 19th-century guitarist saw Bach's music, not a 21st-century guitarist. No one plays this way now (apart from your good self) as interpretive fashions change over time. We know a lot more about baroque interpretation now than people seemed to know in Tárrega's time.

So, you are either over 100 years behind the times, or an early-music specialist with a focus on the Romantic era's understanding of Bach. In either case, I salute you! I love this performance, which makes no attempt to say, "This is how Bach's music was performed in the Baroque period". Carles Trepat is well aware of what he is doing here, knows all the latest approaches to baroque interpretation, and can play that way, but is here recreating how Tárrega viewed Bach's music. And it is complete with (out of tune) gut and silk strings. The out of tune-ness is also historically authentic :-)

kirolak
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by kirolak » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:02 pm

OMG. I worked out these positions/fingering quite independently, abusing an edition by Edson Lopes (entirely ignoring his suggestions) to produce what I thought was a dramatic, dark,melancholy sound. . .I am in no way an early music specialist (or any other kind! :) ) so it was pure serendipity. . or a throwback to an earlier incarnation?.

Should I rather follow the examples of more modern interpretations? (Not that anyone hears me or cares, hahaha!)

I would love to hear you play this, Maestro McKillop, as you are definitely a great specialist & I love to listen to your youtube performances - if you were closer geographically, I would beg you to teach me ! :) Thank you for your input, & actually, I love the strange out-of-tune-ness. . .PS as a vegan, could never use the sheep intestine strings, though. . .

RobMacKillop
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:27 pm

Hi kirolak. I used to play this way when I started. Then I learned the so-called proper way to play baroque music. And now I play like this again :-)

I say learn everything you can, but ultimately trust your instincts and feelings.

I had been playing classical guitar without nails on gut and silk strings for at least twenty years before I heard Carles. His playing gave me the confidence to keep doing what I was doing. I don't have a Torres guitar, but I do have one of these: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=125962

I'm a vegetarian. I would say no sheep ever died to make strings from its guts, but I agree it is not a nice thought. The alternative is plastic, which kills fish...What can you do? Play something which kills fish, or use parts of an animal that would normally be thrown away or used in dog food? It's an awful choice.

musicbyandy
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by musicbyandy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:02 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:21 pm
No one plays this way now (apart from your good self) as interpretive fashions change over time.
Can you elaborate on how this recording differs from others recordings and performances? I don't know hear this recording as sounding out of tune. Can you elaborate on what you mean by out of tune?

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:23 pm

musicbyandy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:02 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:21 pm
No one plays this way now (apart from your good self) as interpretive fashions change over time.
Can you elaborate on how this recording differs from others recordings and performances? I don't know hear this recording as sounding out of tune. Can you elaborate on what you mean by out of tune?
Well, no wonder that with gut strings on a real Torres this piece sounds like it was played in Tarrega's era. But I would like to know how a "modern" interpretation of this piece would sound like - regardless of the sort of guitar and strings used?
Fritz Ober, Torres/Hauser model, 2010, spruce/maple
Giovanni Tacchi, Bouchet model, spruce/BRAZ, 2018

kirolak
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by kirolak » Sun May 19, 2019 2:41 pm

Have you heard Frank Bungarten's version? I admire Maestro Bungarten in Castelnuovo-Tedesco,but (dare I say it?) not so much in Bach (not that he would care about my opinion :) he is a great guitarist & I know that!)

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:23 pm
But I would like to know how a "modern" interpretation of this piece would sound like - regardless of the sort of guitar and strings used?
Zupfgeiger,
Trepat is using many late romantic gestures that would be totally foreign to Baroque music. The most noticeable is sliding into notes. That is very easy to do on a violin (this is a violin partita), but was not a Baroque way of playing. Baroque phrasing is rhetorical (like questions and answers in speech); Baroque rhythms are usually accentuated by alternately playing a loud and soft note; in Baroque music, vibrato is an ornament used on individual notes, not a playing style; and in Baroque it is normal for the player to interpolate ornaments and chord and scale filling into the score. This is indeed a straight late 19th century performance, with no concern for how it would be played in Bach's time; but every concern for how it was played in Tárrega's time. Trepat is one of the master guitarists of our generation, at the top of my list of favorite guitarists. He is a master at Spanish national style and late romantic interpretation.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

richtm
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by richtm » Sun May 19, 2019 6:34 pm

kirolak wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:41 pm
Have you heard Frank Bungarten's version? I admire Maestro Bungarten in Castelnuovo-Tedesco,but (dare I say it?) not so much in Bach (not that he would care about my opinion :) he is a great guitarist & I know that!)
To be honest he - Frank Bungraten is my idol for Bach Partitas and Sonatas. I came from the Barrueco style of Interpretation but now I like much more his clear and more sprucy way of Bach (not over ornamented, clear on the melody, warm tone on a clear and a little bit cold sounding instrument (Schnabl guitar - spruce top, maple back and sides). … I listen now for more than 2 years while driving to his Interpretation and never get tired to hear it...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ernest Köröskenyi 1977 Cedar; Pauline Bernabe Especial 2007 Spruce, 2012 Cedar; Andreas Kirmse 2017 Cedar DT; Philipp Lerche Torres 2018 Spruce

kirolak
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by kirolak » Mon May 20, 2019 9:39 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm
zupfgeiger wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:23 pm
But I would like to know how a "modern" interpretation of this piece would sound like - regardless of the sort of guitar and strings used?
Zupfgeiger,
Trepat is using many late romantic gestures that would be totally foreign to Baroque music. The most noticeable is sliding into notes. That is very easy to do on a violin (this is a violin partita), but was not a Baroque way of playing. Baroque phrasing is rhetorical (like questions and answers in speech); Baroque rhythms are usually accentuated by alternately playing a loud and soft note; in Baroque music, vibrato is an ornament used on individual notes, not a playing style; and in Baroque it is normal for the player to interpolate ornaments and chord and scale filling into the score. This is indeed a straight late 19th century performance, with no concern for how it would be played in Bach's time; but every concern for how it was played in Tárrega's time. Trepat is one of the master guitarists of our generation, at the top of my list of favorite guitarists. He is a master at Spanish national style and late romantic interpretation.

Thank you for this clear explanation of the different style of interpretation & Baroque phrasing; is there a book or article you could recommend on the subject, perhaps? I have never thought of Baroque phrasing as rhetorical, your words have opened a new channel in my brain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon May 20, 2019 9:49 am

kirolak wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:39 am
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm
zupfgeiger wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:23 pm
But I would like to know how a "modern" interpretation of this piece would sound like - regardless of the sort of guitar and strings used?
Zupfgeiger,
Baroque phrasing is rhetorical (like questions and answers in speech);<snip>

Thank you for this clear explanation of the different style of interpretation & Baroque phrasing; is there a book or article you could recommend on the subject, perhaps? I have never thought of Baroque phrasing as rhetorical, your words have opened a new channel in my brain
I am glad you asked, as I did not think of suggesting it. There is GREAT book on the subject:
Performing Baroque Music on the Classical Guitar: a practical handbook based on historical sources by Peter Croton. One caveat: there is hard evidence that actual performance practice is more extreme than was is recorded in books: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1KiGdia5TY.
This entire video is superimportant for understanding historical performance practice, both the opportunities and limitations.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

kirolak
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by kirolak » Thu May 23, 2019 8:02 am

Thank you so much!

Francisco
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by Francisco » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:37 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm
Zupfgeiger,
Trepat is using many late romantic gestures that would be totally foreign to Baroque music. The most noticeable is sliding into notes. That is very easy to do on a violin (this is a violin partita), but was not a Baroque way of playing. Baroque phrasing is rhetorical (like questions and answers in speech); Baroque rhythms are usually accentuated by alternately playing a loud and soft note; in Baroque music, vibrato is an ornament used on individual notes, not a playing style; and in Baroque it is normal for the player to interpolate ornaments and chord and scale filling into the score. This is indeed a straight late 19th century performance, with no concern for how it would be played in Bach's time; but every concern for how it was played in Tárrega's time. Trepat is one of the master guitarists of our generation, at the top of my list of favorite guitarists. He is a master at Spanish national style and late romantic interpretation.
Today is the 30th anniversary of the death of Scott Ross, generally considered one of the best harpsichordists of all time. He died in 1989 at the age of 38. I was going through the Wikipedia entry on him and saw that he had very harsh words for Glenn Gould on account of how he played Bach, which I quote here:

“When I hear nutcases like Glenn Gould who do: [plays staccato version of J.S. Bach's Partita no. 1, BWV 825, Allemande], I say he understood nothing of Bach's music! I've listened carefully to his records: he didn't understand. He was very brilliant; I respect him up to a certain point. For me, the fact that an artist doesn't appear in public poses a problem. But at least he was a guy with the courage not to do things like other people. All the same, he was wide off the mark, so wide off the mark that you'd need a 747 to bring him back. I'm hard on Glenn Gould. Well, he's dead now, so I won't attack a colleague.[1]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ros ... ichordist)

Now, I do like the sound of the harpsichord (when properly recorded) much better than the piano, but I don’t claim to know anything about how Bach should or should not be played on these instruments. Still I was surprised to read those strong words by Ross. Is a staccato version of that piece really an unforgivable blasphemy? Does it prove that Gould was clueless about Bach?
2014 Yamaha GC42S

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by zupfgeiger » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:08 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:49 am
kirolak wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:39 am
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:04 pm

Zupfgeiger,
Baroque phrasing is rhetorical (like questions and answers in speech);<snip>

Thank you for this clear explanation of the different style of interpretation & Baroque phrasing; is there a book or article you could recommend on the subject, perhaps? I have never thought of Baroque phrasing as rhetorical, your words have opened a new channel in my brain
I am glad you asked, as I did not think of suggesting it. There is GREAT book on the subject:
Performing Baroque Music on the Classical Guitar: a practical handbook based on historical sources by Peter Croton. One caveat: there is hard evidence that actual performance practice is more extreme than was is recorded in books: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1KiGdia5TY.
This entire video is superimportant for understanding historical performance practice, both the opportunities and limitations.
Totally agree on Peter Croton's book. Excellent source for every baroque music lover and guitar player. I met Peter last year in the house of my teacher Wulfin Lieske in Cologne, Germany. I attended his lecture and masterclass. The lesson was very helpful for improving my Bach playing.
Fritz Ober, Torres/Hauser model, 2010, spruce/maple
Giovanni Tacchi, Bouchet model, spruce/BRAZ, 2018

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Carles Trepat

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:08 am

zupfgeiger wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:08 am
Totally agree on Peter Croton's book. Excellent source for every baroque music lover and guitar player. I met Peter last year in the house of my teacher Wulfin Lieske in Cologne, Germany. I attended his lecture and masterclass. The lesson was very helpful for improving my Bach playing.
Wow! Lucky you! There are so many top musicians in or passing through Belgium (Rafaela Smits, Wim Winters, just to name two that I follow closely)!
I still have very fond memories of bicycling across the border (from the Netherlands).
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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