Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

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David Norton
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Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by David Norton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:29 am

In Fred Noad's "The Renaissance Guitar" book, he includes a work by Francesco da Milano titled "Ricercare concertante". This apparently is a ricercare of Milano, to which someone else later added a duo part.

My question is: what's the catalog number for the original work?

Here's a recording, with the solo played first and then the duo part grafted onto the repeat.



Hoping some of our Lute Scholars can help here.
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MartinCogg
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm

Does one have to be a Lute Scholar?

I have that Noad Renaissance book, I have a complete Milano edition (Chiesa, so not tablature), I have a tablature facsimile of pieces that were
published with added duet part (Matelart is/wasn't it?) - I'm reasonably ocd about stuff...

I'll go a-hunting :wink:

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:43 pm

In Chiesa it is Fantasia no XII, page 98. There are one or two tiny changes, which may be editorial or the result of a different source.

I've never found a copy of the Ness edition.
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by David Norton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:06 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:53 pm
Does one have to be a Lute Scholar?

I have that Noad Renaissance book, I have a complete Milano edition (Chiesa, so not tablature), I have a tablature facsimile of pieces that were
published with added duet part (Matelart is/wasn't it?) - I'm reasonably ocd about stuff...
Martin, as you possess these editions, "you qualify as a scholar"! :)
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by David Norton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:32 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:43 pm
In Chiesa it is Fantasia no XII, page 98. There are one or two tiny changes, which may be editorial or the result of a different source.

I've never found a copy of the Ness edition.
Thank you Stephen, it is indeed Fantasia XII.
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:27 pm

Stephen's info certainly gave me a jump forward start :wink:
... according to my scholarly research it's Fantasia # 32 in Ness -

the Chiesa edition gives the publications it appeared in, all of which facsimiles are online I'm sure,

INTABOLATURA DE LAUTO DI FRANCESCO MILANESE ET M. PERINO FIORENTINO Suo Discipulo
Di Recercate....etc. LIBRO TERZO
published Gardane 1547 and 1562, Scotto 1563, on fol.A3 (Aiii ?)

In the Matelart publication it's on fol.9v, duet part fol.10r.

Matelart wrote out the 2nd part for a lute tuned a tone higher, so Noad shifted it accordingly -
the positioning for play on 2nd guitar is therefore totally different to the original lute setting.

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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:38 pm

And this is what the parts in Matelart look like
Matelart.f.9v.JPG
matelart.f.10r.JPG
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:48 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:27 pm
...
Matelart wrote out the 2nd part for a lute tuned a tone higher, so Noad shifted it accordingly -
the positioning for play on 2nd guitar is therefore totally different to the original lute setting.
Assuming its comfortable under the fingers in that tone higher original that's an amazing feat of musicianship!
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by David Norton » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:34 am

Regrettably and confusingly: yes, it is titled both as Fantasia XII (Chiesa) and also Fantasia XXXII (Ness). Quite inconvenient to track these down, but I believe the Ness cataloging numbering has taken a firmer hold on general usage than the Chiesa version.
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:31 pm

Personally, I struggle with playing that upside-down tablature on account of I don't want to learn to play these direct
from the books anyway so I always copy out such tablatures the way I like it - other way up. I don't know if it's of
interest to anyone but here are those parts as I'd play from. I put a little ^ in the first, marking a number that some
want to shift to the 2nd string, assuming it was misplaced in error. Chiesa chose not 'correct' this, and meself I don't
presume it's an error, though it could be.

3rd=F# of course, and guitar with capo at 2nd fret for the accompanying part.
Matelart f.9v i.JPG
Matelart f.10r i.JPG
As I understand it, the little crosses above some numbers are merely an indication that the note is held
long as poss.
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by David Norton » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:09 pm

If this works for you, great. But I'd certainly put in bar lines (editorial, I know) just to see where the blazes I am at any given moment.
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:30 pm

Especially in a duo situation I'd agree with that. It's not often one meets unbarred pieces but when I do I prefer
to just follow suit - and it's much quicker to copy out (so long as one doesn't lose track). Matelart's book is
all unbarred pieces.

I copied out the da Milano bit again today, this time barred, and comparing me joy levels in playing it barred or
unbarred, for this piece anyway, I think I prefer playing from my unbarred sheet.
matelart f.9v i + barlines added.jpg
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:36 am

MartinCogg wrote:... comparing me joy levels ...
Martin - that perfectly expresses my dissatisfaction with certain editions - especially these days, when any fool with a music typesetting program can knock up their version, proceeding to spew it, willy-nilly, across the entire globe.

This is not a phenomenon limited to amateurs - "proper" publishing houses are equally guilty.

Your hand-written scores stand diametrically opposed to this disgorging of artless pap. They perfectly fulfil their main purpose (to communicate clearly and unambiguously the instructions of the composer) whilst maintining a simple, graceful beauty of presentation that can be appreciated on its own merits.

More power to your joyful elbow.

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Re: Which Fantasia / Ricercare by da Milano is this?

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:58 pm

Thanks Mark,

I'm always wanting to check freshly presented pieces against the original if I can. I'm more than capable myself of seeing errors
where there are most likely none, but am usually disagreeing about supposed errors found (or missed) by others (obviously there be
obvious wrong-uns that none would dispute). And then there's presentation style - Personally, with lute tablatures, I like those that
only insert the note flags when there's a change rather than those that put a flag for every note, or start every bar with a note flag
whether a change or not, or start every line with a flag, change or not - Matelart's book uses a style that I happen to approve of,
which is probably why I didn't do anything apart from up-to-down and down-to-up it.

Matelart's book got me thinking of all those vocal compositions of the time - unbarred seems pretty much the rule for them (can't
remember ever seeing any barred - modern editions, yes, barlines installed!) and with Matelart being involved in choral music perhaps
he never felt the need to use barlines in lute tablature on account of not generally being in the barring habit.

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