pimi tremolo

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Rasqeo
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:30 pm

Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:48 pm
Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:30 pm
3 treble notes are sufficient to give the illusion of a sustained line. It’s not necessary to play 4 treble notes.
I never said that a three treble note tremolo does not give a sustained line. What I said was that a four treble note tremolo gives a more sustained line than a three. Since neither gives a true sustained line, and both are simply attempts to simulate a sustained sound, then it makes sense to try to simulate it as best you can. Therefore it makes sense to use the pattern that gives a more sustained line, since that is the object in the first place.

Nor have I suggested that everyone immediately stop playing the three and start playing the four. If any player is content with the sound of a three then obviously he or she should use it. I offered this as an alternative for those who are just beginning tremolo, and for players who might want to try the four.

Ramon
I don’t dispute your logic. However, a 4 treble note tremolo is a lot more difficult to learn than a 3 note. If you play Flamenco then the extra effort is worth it because tremolo is used more in that style and 4 treble notes is the standard way of playing it in Flamenco. However, for classical guitar it’s not worth the extra effort, in my opinion, due to the small number of pieces it’s used in.

Also, it’s subjective as to whether the listener prefers 4 or 3 treble notes. In the video you posted for example, the player uses 4 treble notes but I don’t think it sounds any better than numerous other examples of players using 3 notes. Far more important, in my opinion, is the evenness of the tremolo, the overall interpretation, use of rubato etc.

guit-box
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by guit-box » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:27 am

Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:18 pm
Impresario wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:37 pm
Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:00 pm
then - by definition - the more repetitions per beat that you play the more sustained the effect will be at the same tempo.
Definition are not facts, so any video footage corroborating your claims would be much appreciated.
Yes, “by definition” does mean that it is a fact. It is not my opinion, nor is it anything that needs to be demonstrated. The more repetitions per beat that you play the more sustained the effect will be at the same tempo. This cannot be debated any more than “snow is white” can be debated. If you are trying to maintain that a three treble note tremolo sounds just as sustained as a four treble note tremolo, then by that same logic, a two treble note tremolo would sound just as sustained as a three. Try a two and see if you still think so.

Here is a video of a four treble note tremolo. He is using the traditional flamenco tremolo pattern – P-I-A-M-I, but of course that is irrelevant to the question of the more sustained sound of a four since it perfectly illustrates the four.

Ramon

That's pretty sweet, I like it better with flamenco tremolo.
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mike.janel
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by mike.janel » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:44 am

That is a good tremolo, or tremollo?

In this sample I find it different but not necessarily better or more sustained than pami versions.
It has great potential in slower tempos, so I think I will try it.

As I understand it, each note takes some time to fully develop and will naturally sustain for a while. The optimal develop and sustain will depend on the guitar and strings at use.
Trying to repeat too fast or too slow inrerfears with the effect.
The real magic of tremolo is the fact that the human ear "connects the dots", actually accepting the bass note as yet another repetition.
So pami is a 4 note tremolo, and pimim is 5 notes.

Mike.
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Guitar Maniac
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Guitar Maniac » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:01 am

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guitarrista
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by guitarrista » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:30 pm
However, a 4 treble note tremolo is a lot more difficult to learn than a 3 note.
I disagree on this, at least as said in general. I have experience with both, and 4-note flamenco tremolo is definitely easier for me. I also heard the same from others.

My explanation for this is that it might have to do with the extra 'i' providing a sense of better anchoring of the i, m , and a fingers on that one string where one plays the tremolo. This sense of better stability may also be enhanced by the apoyando thumb in flamenco tremolo vs. the tirando thumb in classical tremolo. But I think the feeling of better stability or consistency mostly comes from the extra 'i' before 'ami' keeping the ami from flying off, having too much freedom.

As to your thoughts on the 4 vs. 3 and which sounds better, I agree that there are other dimensions to it besides the stroke count.
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guitarrista
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by guitarrista » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:18 pm
The more repetitions per beat that you play the more sustained the effect will be at the same tempo.
I understand your general argument, However, I think that there are other dimensions to how pleasing, or good, a tremolo sounds besides stroke count in the tremolo part. (not referring to consistency of tone between fingers, or evenness in time, or time between thumb notes, all of which are assumed to be invariant).

One: Duple versus triple vs. "odd' meter feel. Our minds can distinguish between the feel of triplets, quadruplets, and quintuplets independent of the other qualities such as speed. A series of quintuplets (piami) just feels different than the regular old 16ths. Of course with triplets, i.e. pmi where p is at the same rate of p as before, the tremolo effect is lost as a change of 50% (2 vs. 3 notes) is too much to keep it sounding like an actual tremolo.

Two: Hitting the same note very fast is different from a sustained note because of the quality of the initial part of the waveform (the attack) which is very different from that of a sustained pitch that just carries on without diminishing volume. So there is an upper limit to how to emulate a sustained feel through increasing rate of stroke repetition, beyond which the aural qualities of the attack will dominate.

Three: The ratio of the interval between successive p strokes and the interval between any successive tremolo strokes (the ones of the same pitch) has to be not too large, or too small. Too small is covered already; too large and the sense of layering and story-telling through the bass line gets lost.

As a general comment, I think flamenco tremolo (the iami part) usually works in a similar range of rates of repetition as the classical ami tremolo rate, but because it has 4 vs. 3 repetitions, it allows the bass to be spaced out more than with classical. A different feel for that reason; just a different 'beast'.

As to the video, I appreciate Orhan demo-ing it but feel that the 4-strokes are a bit muddied (perhaps the recording) so when you slow it down it hardly sounds like 4 separate strokes, at least where I sampled that - more like 3-ish, which might be why it sounds very much like a classical tremolo (?)
Last edited by guitarrista on Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Julian Ward
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:16 pm

What we really wanted to see was a p - i-m-i-m tremolo demonstrated as it was claimed this was better by a poster above somewhere. I have not seen it played this wasy by anybody before.

Conall
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Conall » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:03 pm

Of course one could just ditch the 3rd treble note altogether & play Pim or Pmi instead....

If it was fast & even it should sound ok - I've tried it - and of course we do something similar in Asturias when it gets into those triplets.

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Julian Ward
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:27 pm

Conall wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:03 pm
Of course one could just ditch the 3rd treble note altogether & play Pim or Pmi instead....

If it was fast & even it should sound ok - I've tried it - and of course we do something similar in Asturias when it gets into those triplets.
It sounds awful! It sounds fantastic in Asturias because that is the speed it is meant to go. If you did it for a proper tremolo piece, the tempo would be far to fast, and sound silly. If you slowed the 'tremelo' down it would immediately lose the illusion.

wombosi
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by wombosi » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:36 pm

I've played around with all the different tremolo patterns, since I am struggling a great deal to execute the tremolo.
Also useful to practice them all for finger independence, as per the videos of Dimitri Nilov.
I find it's much easier to get the evenness (triplet rhythm and volume) using PMIM or PIMI but I can't get the speed up as fast as traditional PAMI.
What I find really interesting is the pattern PAIA. My tremolo might sound the best with that pattern but again, I can't get the speed up enough.

Crofty
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Crofty » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:39 pm

Conall wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:03 pm
Of course one could just ditch the 3rd treble note altogether & play Pim or Pmi instead....
What's particularly easy is ditching them all Conall.

Conall
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Conall » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:35 pm

Crofty wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:39 pm
Conall wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:03 pm
Of course one could just ditch the 3rd treble note altogether & play Pim or Pmi instead....
What's particularly easy is ditching them all Conall.
Ha ha.

Well, I think we can safely say tremolo is a controversial topic on DC.

For the (scratched) record I don't normally play tremolo as Pim or Pmi although I think that as an exercise it's worth trying every possible combination.

My normal preference is pmia simply because it works out more evenly for me. I have briefly tried flamenco tremolo but didn't like it / couldn't get into quintuplets.

Impresario
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Impresario » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:49 am

Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:00 pm
...
3) Putting 1&2 together you arrive at a four treble note tremolo played with M and I. I have found the best pattern to be P-M-I-M-I.

4) I teach this tremolo to all my students and they all have excellent tremolos.

Ramon
Question:
Julian Ward wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:05 pm
Ramon, have you got any video footage you can point us to, or know of, of anybody playing a four note tremolo in this style? (Not a flamenco style one).
Reply:
Ramon Amira wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:18 pm
Here is a video of a four treble note tremolo. He is using the traditional flamenco tremolo pattern...
What am I missing here?

P.S. Julian Ward does master the tremolo ( he seems to be the only one in this thread),

" youtube/watch?time_continue=167&v=fY4Dsh2eIPM"

Crofty
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Crofty » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:07 pm

impresario

"What am I missing here?"

Perhaps just simply that the video Ramon attached was not of a flamenco piece but a classical favourite - which was exactly what had been requested by Julian.

[Who doesn't appear to be complaining by the way.]

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: pimi tremolo

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Crofty wrote:Perhaps just simply that the video Ramon attached was not of a flamenco piece but a classical favourite - which was exactly what had been requested by Julian.
No Crofty.
Julian Ward wrote:Ramon, have you got any video footage you can point us to, or know of, of anybody playing a four note tremolo in this style? (Not a flamenco style one).
I think Julian meant "manner" not style i.e. pimim (or pmimi). So ...
Ramon Amira wrote:He is using the traditional flamenco tremolo pattern...
... is exactly what he (Julian) requested be excluded i.e. piami.

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