Playing Live in the Y2K

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MaritimeGuitarist
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by MaritimeGuitarist » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:17 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
Interesting how a little harmless post develops into a little private war ... seems to be the Zeitgeist. I'm glad that the waves subside a bit.
Yes, and it is one that I will now bow out of. I often have much buyer's remorse when I inject myself into these types of conversations--particularly when they have nothing to do with guitar technique. I'm too impulsive sometimes.

Rognvald, we will simply have to agree to disagree. It may be a better idea to find a more appropriate forum for such conversations.

Rognvald
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by Rognvald » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
Interesting how a little harmless post develops into a little private war ... seems to be the Zeitgeist. I'm glad that the waves subside a bit.


No war at all, Rojaro . . . just an attempt to clarify stated positions that I believe were misinterpreted or misread by some on this Forum. However, I've had no answer to my last question relating to the topic as to how many people on this Forum make a living playing CG without teaching? And, for interest sake, how many on this forum play Jazz guitar for a full time living without teaching? Perhaps, this will help us flesh out if playing live in the Y2K is alive and well or in severe decline as I have posited. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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prawnheed
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by prawnheed » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 pm
rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
Interesting how a little harmless post develops into a little private war ... seems to be the Zeitgeist. I'm glad that the waves subside a bit.


No war at all, Rojaro . . . just an attempt to clarify stated positions that I believe were misinterpreted or misread by some on this Forum. However, I've had no answer to my last question relating to the topic as to how many people on this Forum make a living playing CG without teaching? And, for interest sake, how many on this forum play Jazz guitar for a full time living without teaching? Perhaps, this will help us flesh out if playing live in the Y2K is alive and well or in severe decline as I have posited. Playing again . . . Rognvald
It would only tell you something about the current state if you had something to compare it to.

Rognvald
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by Rognvald » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:35 pm

prawnheed wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 pm
rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm
Interesting how a little harmless post develops into a little private war ... seems to be the Zeitgeist. I'm glad that the waves subside a bit.


No war at all, Rojaro . . . just an attempt to clarify stated positions that I believe were misinterpreted or misread by some on this Forum. However, I've had no answer to my last question relating to the topic as to how many people on this Forum make a living playing CG without teaching? And, for interest sake, how many on this forum play Jazz guitar for a full time living without teaching? Perhaps, this will help us flesh out if playing live in the Y2K is alive and well or in severe decline as I have posited. Playing again . . . Rognvald
It would only tell you something about the current state if you had something to compare it to.
I do, prawnheed. Although I never worked full-time as a Classical performer(only part-time in clubs, weddings, restaurants), I did as a R&B/Jazz-Rock horn player in the 60's and 70's. The opportunities for working bands were unlimited with clubs, concert venues, universities, the hotel circuit, etc. When "Disco" arrived, the performance opportunities died quickly and most of us got out and moved on with our lives by the late Seventies/early Eighties. Also, during that time, many of my Jazz/Classical buddies who once made a good living traveling around the country either went back to teaching or found another profession and played music as an avocation. A few of those players are well-known CG's to many on this forum and their names will not be mentioned out of respect for them and their lives. So, if you want to know about performance opportunities, you need to talk to authentic working musicians which is why I started this discussion. I'll share a brief story, without names, to provide an interesting example. One of my friends who is a member of the Rockford Symphony(Illinois) was asked to find a drummer to play for a Lithuanian celebration. The gig was 1 hour and paid $100. with no reimbursement for travel time($40.00 per hour/2 1/2 hours including travel time, gas). The date was 4 months in advance and the drummer was one of the top Jazz drummers in Chicago. When my friend called him, she told me she was embarrassed believing it to be beneath his skill level and pay requirements but he took the job immediately and thanked her profusely for the job--even though he had a 45-minute drive to get there. This would never have been the case in the past when he worked 6-7 days a week and the gig would have gone to a high school or college student looking for some extra cash. I also related the status quo of the other concert venues previously in this discussion. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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prawnheed
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by prawnheed » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:55 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:35 pm
prawnheed wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:53 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:10 pm




No war at all, Rojaro . . . just an attempt to clarify stated positions that I believe were misinterpreted or misread by some on this Forum. However, I've had no answer to my last question relating to the topic as to how many people on this Forum make a living playing CG without teaching? And, for interest sake, how many on this forum play Jazz guitar for a full time living without teaching? Perhaps, this will help us flesh out if playing live in the Y2K is alive and well or in severe decline as I have posited. Playing again . . . Rognvald
It would only tell you something about the current state if you had something to compare it to.
I do, prawnheed. Although I never worked full-time as a Classical performer(only part-time in clubs, weddings, restaurants), I did as a R&B/Jazz-Rock horn player in the 60's and 70's. The opportunities for working bands were unlimited with clubs, concert venues, universities, the hotel circuit, etc. When "Disco" arrived, the performance opportunities died quickly and most of us got out and moved on with our lives by the late Seventies/early Eighties. Also, during that time, many of my Jazz/Classical buddies who once made a good living traveling around the country either went back to teaching or found another profession and played music as an avocation. A few of those players are well-known CG's to many on this forum and their names will not be mentioned out of respect for them and their lives. So, if you want to know about performance opportunities, you need to talk to authentic working musicians which is why I started this discussion. I'll share a brief story, without names, to provide an interesting example. One of my friends who is a member of the Rockford Symphony(Illinois) was asked to find a drummer to play for a Lithuanian celebration. The gig was 1 hour and paid $100. with no reimbursement for travel time($40.00 per hour/2 1/2 hours including travel time, gas). The date was 4 months in advance and the drummer was one of the top Jazz drummers in Chicago. When my friend called him, she told me she was embarrassed believing it to be beneath his skill level and pay requirements but he took the job immediately and thanked her profusely for the job--even though he had a 45-minute drive to get there. This would never have been the case in the past when he worked 6-7 days a week and the gig would have gone to a high school or college student looking for some extra cash. I also related the status quo of the other concert venues previously in this discussion. Playing again . . . Rognvald
So let's say nobody on this forum makes a living playing classical music. What if one or two do? Twenty?

My point is that it doesn't tell you anything really. Comparing a few anecdotes doesn't say anything about the general state of the industry and certainly doesn't tell you anything about whether it is better, worse or different to how it used to be.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 pm

Just to tell another anecdote: when I visited England for the first time in my life, I had to take a train from Harwich to London. The trains consisted of a chain of totally separated wagons with compartments that were chained together but couldn't be walked through. Every compartment was only accessible from the sides and was as wide as the wagon was, with no gangway between the seats. At the end of each wagon there was a special compartment for a brakeman, whose sole job was to turn the brake wheel at appropriate times to bring the train to halt.

But, at the time of my visit the trains were already equipped with a hydraulic brake activated by the machine man. So the brakeman didn't have to do anything, actually, they just were there because the trade union had won the fight for the conservation of their jobs! Just came to my mind, when I started to reflect what it means to compare state of affairs then with now...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

AndreiKrylov

Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:05 pm

.
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rognvald
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by Rognvald » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 am

So let's say nobody on this forum makes a living playing classical music. What if one or two do? Twenty?

My point is that it doesn't tell you anything really. Comparing a few anecdotes doesn't say anything about the general state of the industry and certainly doesn't tell you anything about whether it is better, worse or different to how it used to be. Prawnheed
P,
This was the point of this topic for those who are performers: is it the same . . . is it better . . . is it worse? Apparently, there are not enough performing musicians on this Forum to give us some real feedback. Although I admit, once the PC police entered the discussion, it became severely sidetracked and compromised. Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. Did I hear the thundering hoofs again in the quiescent shifting wind? Listen . . . I think I can hear it again:
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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prawnheed
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by prawnheed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:33 am

Rognvald wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 am
So let's say nobody on this forum makes a living playing classical music. What if one or two do? Twenty?

My point is that it doesn't tell you anything really. Comparing a few anecdotes doesn't say anything about the general state of the industry and certainly doesn't tell you anything about whether it is better, worse or different to how it used to be. Prawnheed
P,
This was the point of this topic for those who are performers: is it the same . . . is it better . . . is it worse? Apparently, there are not enough performing musicians on this Forum to give us some real feedback. Although I admit, once the PC police entered the discussion, it became severely sidetracked and compromised. Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. Did I hear the thundering hoofs again in the quiescent shifting wind? Listen . . . I think I can hear it again:
Well I gave up trying to make a living from music in the early 1980's. Up to then I was earning from classical performing (almost nothing), playing in two rock/punk bands (beer money) and, of course, teaching (food and rent). I changed career at that point and am very happy I did.

It seems to me that very few people have made a living from purely classical performing. At least not since the days when the styles of music we now call classical were contemporary and popular. To make money, one has to play what people will pay to listen to and popular music is called "popular" for a reason. Tastes change, there was a time when jazz, blues, classic rock etc. were popular - now they are niches. Very few people will be able to make a living playing 50s, 60s or 70s popular music now. To do that you need to be playing what is currently popular, not dad or grandpa's music.

I saw nothing PC. You have chosen to be a elitist snob, but not everyone who is good at something makes that choice. Many of the greats in any field are also humble and respectful of the choices of others.

Rognvald
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by Rognvald » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:08 pm

prawnheed wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:33 am
Rognvald wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 am
So let's say nobody on this forum makes a living playing classical music. What if one or two do? Twenty?

My point is that it doesn't tell you anything really. Comparing a few anecdotes doesn't say anything about the general state of the industry and certainly doesn't tell you anything about whether it is better, worse or different to how it used to be. Prawnheed
P,
This was the point of this topic for those who are performers: is it the same . . . is it better . . . is it worse? Apparently, there are not enough performing musicians on this Forum to give us some real feedback. Although I admit, once the PC police entered the discussion, it became severely sidetracked and compromised. Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. Did I hear the thundering hoofs again in the quiescent shifting wind? Listen . . . I think I can hear it again:
Well I gave up trying to make a living from music in the early 1980's. Up to then I was earning from classical performing (almost nothing), playing in two rock/punk bands (beer money) and, of course, teaching (food and rent). I changed career at that point and am very happy I did.

It seems to me that very few people have made a living from purely classical performing. At least not since the days when the styles of music we now call classical were contemporary and popular. To make money, one has to play what people will pay to listen to and popular music is called "popular" for a reason. Tastes change, there was a time when jazz, blues, classic rock etc. were popular - now they are niches. Very few people will be able to make a living playing 50s, 60s or 70s popular music now. To do that you need to be playing what is currently popular, not dad or grandpa's music.

I saw nothing PC. You have chosen to be a elitist snob, but not everyone who is good at something makes that choice. Many of the greats in any field are also humble and respectful of the choices of others.
P,
Thanks for sharing your musical past which, to me, mirrors many of us who have attempted to play full-time music at some time in our lives. In regards to your last statement, let me say that there are many generational differences in how people perceive criticism, success, accomplishment, etc. especially among those in the younger generations who have been reared on a diet of "we're all the same . . . it's just that some of us have had better opportunities" mantra. Of course, we know this belies 6 million years of human evolution and the evolution of our species. However, may I suggest a thread I responded to last night with an excellent video that focuses on the age-old tradition of the Master and student and how the learning process for greatness is perceived by some. It is "How NOT to teach" in the Public Forum. Highly recommended. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

CactusWren
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by CactusWren » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 pm

But, at the time of my visit the trains were already equipped with a hydraulic brake activated by the machine man. So the brakeman didn't have to do anything, actually, they just were there because the trade union had won the fight for the conservation of their jobs! Just came to my mind, when I started to reflect what it means to compare state of affairs then with now...
Are you saying that because of DJs and Muzak that a working musician is an anachronism being replaced by superior technology? I sure hope not--that is incredibly disrespectful to live music, which is not the same thing as recorded music and which creates a highly inferior experience.

AndreiKrylov

Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:42 am

CactusWren wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:10 pm
rojarosguitar wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 pm

But, at the time of my visit the trains were already equipped with a hydraulic brake activated by the machine man. So the brakeman didn't have to do anything, actually, they just were there because the trade union had won the fight for the conservation of their jobs! Just came to my mind, when I started to reflect what it means to compare state of affairs then with now...
Are you saying that because of DJs and Muzak that a working musician is an anachronism being replaced by superior technology? I sure hope not--that is incredibly disrespectful to live music, which is not the same thing as recorded music and which creates a highly inferior experience.
it is not because of DJs and Muzak etc.
Times have changed.
New generations of people probably spending more time been present in virtual reality rather than been active in physical
one... it is just a fact.. people surrounded by it through many devices they have and everyone could see it everywhere...
This new reality takes a lot of time... including time which was spent on certain type of entertainment and sports, including classical guitar...train replaced horses.
we can not turn train of modern civilization backwards .. the only thing possible for any craft to survive and grow in new conditions is to have wider appeal, but ...because of extremely conservative nature and many taboos, rules and laws regulating existence of this craft it does not look that it could grow its appeal. Only way is to drastically change all these conservative views and make it as free as possible, only this probably will make it more relevant in new world.
But...could it happen?..

novice
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by novice » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:21 am

I made the mistake of playing at an open mic in a bar once in response to the impresario's request--people were very enthusiastic but I could hear Bach's bones beating themselves to dust as he spun in his coffin. I couldn't hear myself well at all and what I could hear was a thin, trebly mess.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:55 am

@ Andrei: that was in a nutshell the point of my anecdote about the brakemen...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

Rognvald
Posts: 652
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Re: Playing Live in the Y2K

Post by Rognvald » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:16 pm

we can not turn train of modern civilization backwards .. the only thing possible for any craft to survive and grow in new conditions is to have wider appeal, but ...because of extremely conservative nature and many taboos, rules and laws regulating existence of this craft it does not look that it could grow its appeal. Andrei K

Andrei,
I agree with the first part of your statement that we cannot turn modern civilization backward but disagree with your reasoning concerning the effects of conservatisim, taboos, rules, etc. as its primal cause(?) It is not because of conservatism, taboos and rules that Classical Music and serious Jazz are in decline but rather that the values needed to promote and grow these Art forms in the future are at odds with 21st Century Materialism as preached overtly and subliminally in movies, TV, videos, magazines and taught in our homes and schools. And, the decline of educational standards we have witnessed in the last 60 years in public education(especially here in the US) and the exclusion of a balanced educational curriculum that includes Music, Art and Literature are endemic and perhaps irreversible. The Arts have traditionally struggled in the scope of the development of our Western Civilization but the numbers of Liberal Arts students nationwide has fallen dramatically in both primary, secondary and university curriculums as compared with the recent past. And, these trends are not likely to be reversed since not only performance opportunities for serious music have declined but the results of the lack of exposure to serious Music and Art have created an environment where the term "Artist" is used for Psycho-Pop Painters, dime store novelists and three-chord guitarists who make millions from the humble, uneducated masses. Perhaps, the saddest example, for me, is that the Sixties charlatan, Dylan, received the Nobel Prize for Literature in the shadow of Solzhenitsyn, Satre, Steinbeck, Camus, Hemingway, Churchill, Faulkner, Eliot, Hesse, Mann, Shaw, Yeats, Rolland . . . excuse me dear reader but I think I'm testing the limit of civility. Playing again . . . Rognvald O.K. I guess I can't stop. Here are some of the profound lyrics by the Nobel Laureate . . . . How is it possible to write such profound lines?


"Don't Think Twice, It's All Right" (The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, 1963)

I ain't a-saying you treated me unkind
You could have done better but I don't mind
You just kinda wasted my precious time
But don't think twice, it's all right

Now, that's a Nobel Prize-winning author!
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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