Nick Cutroneo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm
Lot to discuss - so I'm going edit while I go. Getting rid of the excess quotes.
guitarrista wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:37 pm
Yes, however in the first case you still have to keep firing the flexor muscle (which is the case I was referring to); in the latter you, in addition, are also firing other muscles that do not even participate in the motion/action. However, my point is that even in the first case, i.e. even without adding even more tension from tensing unrelated muscles (as beginners frequently do), one still has to keep firing the flexor digitorum muscles. Are we on the same page on this or is there a misunderstanding of what each is referring to?
In all honestly, I'm confused with what you are trying to say. My point is 2 fold. The first is before we even discuss the concept of sequencing the fingers, the player must first learn to release the fingers out of the hand and also hold the fingers in the hand with as little tension (which I'll refer to as "energy" for the sake of clarity between necessary tension and dysfunctional tension). There is very little energy needed to keep the fingers in the hand, but first we must explore how much (or rather how little) we need to hold the fingers in the hand. Just like how we explore how little pressure to use in the left hand to fret a note. Second, during this exploration we have to learn how to release the fingers. This meaning learning how to deactivate the muscles holding the finger in the hand, allowing the fingers to come back out to playing position. I'm confused with the point you are making in this case.
OK, I think I got it; you are making a distinction between the force needed to push through the string during the stroke compared to the force need to hold a finger from releasing back to its natural position after a stroke. I hadn't considered that the latter would require less tension, so in that I understand your point. What I don't quite get is why not just strive to release naturally as soon as the stroke is done - the way the fingers of professional pianists are shown to work: impulse forces applied at the right time for the briefest of moments, and off as soon as the string (in the guitarists case) is released.
The MA interdependence argument applies to both flexion and extension. If we accept that we have to group because of it, it means striving to group both on flexion, and on extension. But that is not what is advocated here, instead it is a grouping only on extension. So if it possible to flex A and M independently enough to produce proper tone from each despite partial AM dependency, this makes me think that the grouping on extension is not necessarily needed either - at least not because of MA interdependence. Below you touch on follow-through and I explain how I see it, which may also be of relevance here about the difference of opinions on the necessity for MA grouping on extension.
Nick Cutroneo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm
guitarrista wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:37 pm
Right; I am aware of the partial MAe dependency; though some people have physically separate tendons. All this means is that if you flex M, say, then A and e (your 'ch') may move along passively a bit, which is better than forcing them to stay extended (and vice versa). Notice there is nothing in this about ACTIVE muscle use to move the outside finger(s) along or to keep them flexed (or extended) - such as would be required in the instruction to hold MA together flexed.
Yes, M-A movement is not as independent as for I-M (in most),
however the effect is not at its maximal when fingers are at their mid-range - as they typically are in a normal guitar hand posture. And we still manage to do non-grouped M-A movement where required in arpeggios. Even in the instruction above thread, only the extension is done as a MA group; the flexion is still done as individual fingers even though the argument for extension grouping as you presented it is a more general one which would apply to both flexion and extension of M and A.
I think the difference of opinion is best stated in the bolded section. A proper follow through to activate the string downward toward the guitar to achieve the best and also loudest sound is allowing the fingers to follow through into the hand past the point of mid-range. When we play we do not stay in the mid-range position, we start there. Dealing with how to ultimately minimize this motion is a whole different topic which I'm glad to elaborate on, but for the sake of keeping this reply on topic I won't here. Because the M or A finger will pluck and go past mid-range of motion into the hand, we need to group the fingers properly and also allow for sympathetic motion to aid in bringing the fingers to the string.
OK. Here what I would disagree with is how much follow-through (deviation from mid-range) one really needs to have after string release. Finger motion after the moment the string is released from the finger does not contribute to the sound itself. At that moment of release, we are still pretty comfortably within mid-range so the potential MA interdependence effect is minimized. Maybe for beginners it is proper to teach them a large follow-through into the palm, but there is no reason to insist on that in advanced guitarists. The motion after release is, as far as I am concerned, brief and passive (no active force as the impulse is over) and after it the extensor muscle starts resetting the fingertip back for another stroke. However IF there was a large follow-through, the MA grouping argument would make more sense - except for BOTH flexion and extension, not just for flexion alone.
Nick Cutroneo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm
guitarrista wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:37 pm
Separately - I've seen this mentioned before - avoiding "double muscle action (flexing and extending at the same time)" - and it makes sense when applied to the SAME finger. However here you seem to be using it more generally to apply to different fingers. If so, I don't understand the argument. Flexion and extension involve different muscles as well as different fingers (one finger extend, the other flexes) - where is the overlap or counter-productive function?
How do you alternate your I and M fingers? One finger plays (comes in) the other extends (goes out). This happens simultaneously, no? The process is exactly the same with an arpeggio but again grouping MA due to their linked tendons which limit their independence.
Yes of course this is how I do I-M at speed, but I thought you were implying that one should avoid simultaneous flexion of one finger with extension of another. I was asking why should we avoid that. Here's what you said previously that made me think this:
Going between I and MAch you aren't using any double muscle action (flexing and extending at the same time). This is the reason why it's so hard to alternate between M and A.
And then I asked in essence, what is wrong with flexing and extending at the same time when it is two different muscles and two different fingers (provided it is away from extremes of range).
Nick Cutroneo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm
guitarrista wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:37 pm
Yes, but so many instructors (especially on video) just skip over
that. I guess I am advocating for being extremely clear about the context and all relevant assumptions of a particular instruction, to minimize misinterpretation (and its consequences) by the student.
I agree. There's an assumption that everyone's developing their arpeggios for fast usage. If I'm playing a slow arpeggio my hand will be more relaxed by me releasing the fingers individually. But the difference is that I have the time for that to happen with each finger. It takes more time to individually pluck and release each finger than it does to group the fingers for releasing out of the hand, thus why we do this type of sequence for FAST playing.
In my experience all this seems to be pushed into the subconscious at super-fast speeds - so I am not consciously pluck-and-releasing individual fingers but it might be happening, though to an outsider it probably looks like straight alternation or arpeggio; however I don't feel tension which tells me that it's working itself out. I propose that this is the outcome of a slow practice with impulse-force for each finger (what others have unfortunately named "ballistic"). It is possible there are multiple ways to achieve a similar outcome, though.
Nick Cutroneo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 pm
Here I think again, we are misunderstanding each other. I'm not advocating for M and A to PLACE together, but rather to only release out of the hand together. Their motions to prepare on the string and pluck are separate movements. The only linkage they share are to 1) release out of the hand together so they are ready to be used and 2) sympathetic motion to bring the fingers to the string (IE M plays, A finger sympathetically moves to the string and prepares to pluck OR A plays, and M sympathetically moves to the string and prepares to pluck) Obviously the plucking motions are independent from each other.
Yes, my bad, I totally confused another of your responses (to Desperado, where you did mention full vs. sequential planting) for this one
