Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

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Nick Cutroneo
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Nick Cutroneo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:24 am

Sebastian wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:15 pm
Well for the perspective I'm watching the video I'm not 100% sure, but with a 90% of security I'd say he's either not collapsing tipjoints or he's collapsing but only A LITTLE BIT.
By definition "a little bit" is STILL collapsing. You need to stop thinking in "yes or no" terms and starting learning to control the amount of collapse you allow your tip joints to do.
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Sebastian
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Sebastian » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:07 pm

Nick Cutroneo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:24 am
Sebastian wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:15 pm
Well for the perspective I'm watching the video I'm not 100% sure, but with a 90% of security I'd say he's either not collapsing tipjoints or he's collapsing but only A LITTLE BIT.
By definition "a little bit" is STILL collapsing. You need to stop thinking in "yes or no" terms and starting learning to control the amount of collapse you allow your tip joints to do.
Yes, that's what I stated, he's either not collapsing (at all, 0%) or he's collapsing a little I'd say the guy in the video could be doing one or other. By collapse I mean that the fingertip joint ends up being bended forming one phalanx which it is also bend into the direction of the palm of the hand when pressing the string.
Either way, the problem is that my collapse exists, and that also it is very wide
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by guit-box » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:36 am

Sebastian wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:22 pm
PS: Yes I'm about to post a short video explaining the issue itself in a short future.
Looking forward to seeing your tip joints in action. :D
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Jason Kulas
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Jason Kulas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:22 am

guit-box wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 am
I think for people who play with a more curved finger free stroke, to get through the string with very little middle joint flexion, the distal joint has to passively extent a little. (more with the middle finger since it's longer). If you use more middle/tip joint flexion, that's another way to get through the string without allowing the distal joint to passively extend.
I would think too, wouldn't some of this have to do with how your fingers/nails are shaped, and the natural tension of your tendons in your relaxed fingers? If your nails are hooked vs not, if your fingertips are fleshy and bulbous vs not, etc, doesn't that change what your joints have to do to smoothly get through a string? And then too, if the difference in length between your shortest vs longest fingers is large vs small, that changes things, wouldn't it? Some fingers get through a string differently. Or if you're "forced" to one approach to accommodate the mechanics of your longest finger/nail, maybe you naturally mirror that same approach to your other fingers, even though they don't require that same approach?
Last edited by Jason Kulas on Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by guit-box » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:44 am

Jason Kulas wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:22 am
guit-box wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 am
I think for people who play with a more curved finger free stroke, to get through the string with very little middle joint flexion, the distal joint has to passively extent a little. (more with the middle finger since it's longer). If you use more middle/tip joint flexion, that's another way to get through the string without allowing the distal joint to passively extend.
I would think too, wouldn't some of this have to do with how your fingers/nails are shaped? If your nails are hooked vs not, if your fingertips are fleshy and bulbous vs not, etc, doesn't that change what your joints have to do to smoothly get through a string? And then too, if the difference in length between your shortest vs longest fingers is large vs small, that changes things, wouldn't it? Some fingers get through a string differently. Or if you're "forced" to one approach to accommodate the mechanics of your longest finger/nail, maybe you naturally mirror that same approach to your other fingers, even though they don't require that same approach?
For sure. Everyone has a longer m finger and usually the m stroke looks a bit different in terms of the amounts the joints move or the amount the tip joint collapses (if at all), compared to the i and a fingers. (i and a usually have a larger middle joint follow through than m in many of the professional hands I've observed). High or low wrist make a big difference too. Some people are lucky and everything falls into place easily for them, for others it's a longer process to find what works. Took me a really long time to realize my m finger nail needs to be very short, but that's just my hand.
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Jason Kulas
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Jason Kulas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:57 am

guit-box wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 am
The passive extension can give a nice round sound and the firm tips can give a harsher attack
Can you really credit the passive extension with the roundness of the sound? Does the string actually "care" what your joints are doing, or wrist, or rotation of the forearm, etc? Isn't all it cares about is how much it was displaced (and was it purely down/towards soundboard vs some lateral displacement), and how much time it spent traveling over flesh or nail, and how cleanly it was released? If you paid precise attention to how your finger/flesh/nail were interacting with the string during a stroke with passive extension, and then re-trimmed your nail as needed, couldn't you duplicate the same finger/flesh/nail interaction with firm tips, and therefore the same sound?
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Larry McDonald
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Larry McDonald » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:53 am

Jason Kulas wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:57 am
guit-box wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 am
The passive extension can give a nice round sound and the firm tips can give a harsher attack
Can you really credit the passive extension with the roundness of the sound? Does the string actually "care" what your joints are doing, or wrist, or rotation of the forearm, etc? Isn't all it cares about is how much it was displaced (and was it purely down/towards soundboard vs some lateral displacement), and how much time it spent traveling over flesh or nail, and how cleanly it was released? If you paid precise attention to how your finger/flesh/nail were interacting with the string during a stroke with passive extension, and then re-trimmed your nail as needed, couldn't you duplicate the same finger/flesh/nail interaction with firm tips, and therefore the same sound?
Yep.
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Jason Kulas
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by Jason Kulas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:16 am

Larry McDonald wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:53 am
Yep.
That's good to know.

Being new-ish to CG, I'm paying a lot of attention to nails, ergonomics, correct stroke technique, etc. And what I seem to be finding is that, because I have short, hooked nails, and fleshy/bulbous fingertips (eek, he's a monster!), while I'm capable of free-stroking with relaxed/collapsing/passive tips (and I do for things like rest stroke with m), it creates challenges on free stroke...the genetically "poor" nails and fleshy fingers means that when I depress the strings, there's "a lot" of fleshy finger down there below the level of the strings.

And it all needs to exit out of there smoothly, quickly, cleanly, and without hitting other strings. That exiting process seems to be a lot easier when I keep my fingertips "firm".
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Re: Collapsing fingertip joints (right hand) for free stroke?

Post by guit-box » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:48 am

Jason Kulas wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:57 am
guit-box wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:24 am
The passive extension can give a nice round sound and the firm tips can give a harsher attack
Can you really credit the passive extension with the roundness of the sound? Does the string actually "care" what your joints are doing, or wrist, or rotation of the forearm, etc? Isn't all it cares about is how much it was displaced (and was it purely down/towards soundboard vs some lateral displacement), and how much time it spent traveling over flesh or nail, and how cleanly it was released? If you paid precise attention to how your finger/flesh/nail were interacting with the string during a stroke with passive extension, and then re-trimmed your nail as needed, couldn't you duplicate the same finger/flesh/nail interaction with firm tips, and therefore the same sound?
Notice I said "can" and not "does". Collapsing the tip joint generally aids in pushing the string more downward and most world class players are collapsing the tips on rest strokes. Some, as I showed in the videos I posted also do it for free stroke.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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