Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

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nattyCT
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Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by nattyCT » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:53 pm

I'm currently working on this arr, but I have a problem with timing. Followings are the sample sheet and video :
http://kossinskaja.com/produkt/oblivion ... ssinskaja/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez62cQPYyI8

If you look at measure 6, there are two triplets at the end, so its timing should be a "quarter" note, but when you listen to video it is way longer than a quarter note and if it was quarter note, it would be so bad because of being fast. How should I study this part with a metronome?

Tonit
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by Tonit » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:19 pm

It will be a choice addition to your repertoire.
I would go with 16ths for the phrase, preceded by a little rit on the first half of the measure or fermata on the last best thereof, followed by acc for this phrase, sort of.

It's hard to explain by words, and also in the staves (and maybe that's what Nadja would also say, I suppose).

Maybe you can refer to the original Piazzola (and optionally other performances) and see how Nadja has interpreted the feel. It is of the essence for me to see extensive list of different arrangements of a tune on my cuttingboard.

I look forward to your performing this if accessible via YouTube or otherwise.

Cheers,

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guitarrista
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by guitarrista » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:56 pm

nattyCT wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:53 pm
I'm currently working on this arr, but I have a problem with timing. Followings are the sample sheet and video :
http://kossinskaja.com/produkt/oblivion ... ssinskaja/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez62cQPYyI8

If you look at measure 6, there are two triplets at the end, so its timing should be a "quarter" note, but when you listen to video it is way longer than a quarter note and if it was quarter note, it would be so bad because of being fast. How should I study this part with a metronome?
First off, this sample score does not match what she plays in several places just in the first 6-7 measures. She starts with 4 measures, not two, of the ostinato phrase; then the glissando to high B that she does is not in the score; later on in the first half of measure 6 the third note G is part of a chord when she plays it , but is just a single G in the score.

So keep this in mind when comparing video to the score.

However, the part in measure 6 you inquire about seems to be correct as written. It is NOT 2 triplet 16ths. but one triplet 16ths - i.e. 3 notes played within the space of 2 16ths, followed by 2 normal 16ths (not a triplet); also the last 16th from the triplet is tied with the 1 regular 16th after that. So it is notated properly and about right timing-wise as played.

EDIT: Oops, never mind ,I am explaining about measure 7. :lol:

How to practice it? Get comfortable switching between 3s and 2s and what that sounds like. Practice it doubled in duration, as if it is a triplet 8ths over one quarter, followed by two regular 8th notes over the second quarter. Tap at the beginning of each quarter. At first try it separately, just a sequence of triplet 8ths, the first one of which is where you tap; then just a regular sequence of 2 8ths per quarter, the first one of which is tapped. Then try combining them: (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2), (tap, 2), (tap, 2); repeat.. at first, then (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2), (tap, 2); repeat.. then just (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2); (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2); repeat... Note here all brackets have the same duration of a quarter note.

Finally, (tap, 2, 3), (_, 2); (tap, 2, 3), (_, 2); repeat.. which is the rhythmical pattern you are after. Make sure to extend the D at "3" till you have to strike the C at the last "2".
Last edited by guitarrista on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

nattyCT
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by nattyCT » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:14 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:56 pm
nattyCT wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:53 pm
I'm currently working on this arr, but I have a problem with timing. Followings are the sample sheet and video :
http://kossinskaja.com/produkt/oblivion ... ssinskaja/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez62cQPYyI8

If you look at measure 6, there are two triplets at the end, so its timing should be a "quarter" note, but when you listen to video it is way longer than a quarter note and if it was quarter note, it would be so bad because of being fast. How should I study this part with a metronome?
First off, this sample score does not match what she plays in several places just in the first 6-7 measures. She starts with 4 measures, not two, of the ostinato phrase; then the glissando to high B that she does is not in the score; later on in the first half of measure 6 the third note G is part of a chord when she plays it , but is just a single G in the score.

So keep this in mind when comparing video to the score.

However, the part in measure 6 you inquire about seems to be correct as written. It is NOT 2 triplet 16ths. but one triplet 16ths - i.e. 3 notes played within the space of 2 16ths, followed by 2 normal 16ths (not a triplet); also the last 16th from the triplet is tied with the 1 regular 16th after that. So it is notated properly and about right timing-wise as played.

How to practice it? Get comfortable switching between 3s and 2s and what that sounds like. Practice it doubled in duration, as if it is a triplet 8ths over one quarter, followed by two regular 8th notes over the second quarter. Tap at the beginning of each quarter. At first try it separately, just a sequence of triplet 8ths, the first one of which is where you tap; then just a regular sequence of 2 8ths per quarter, the first one of which is tapped. Then try combining them: (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2), (tap, 2), (tap, 2); repeat.. at first, then (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2), (tap, 2); repeat.. then just (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2); (tap, 2 ,3), (tap, 2); repeat... Note here all brackets have the same duration of a quarter note.

Finally, (tap, 2, 3), (_, 2); (tap, 2, 3), (_, 2); repeat.. which is the rhythmical pattern you are after. Make sure to extend the D at "3" till you have to strike the C at the last "2".
Yes, video doesn't match sheet but I'm just interested in that double triplet part which is measure 6th, not 7th as you explain. What I'm trying to say is that if you listen to her, that part seems to be slower than what a double 16th triplet should take. Am I wrong with this feeling?

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guitarrista
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by guitarrista » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm

nattyCT wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:14 pm
Yes, video doesn't match sheet but I'm just interested in that double triplet part which is measure 6th, not 7th as you explain. What I'm trying to say is that if you listen to her, that part seems to be slower than what a double 16th triplet should take. Am I wrong with this feeling?
No you are not wrong. She takes almost a full quarter note more time to do it, it is played almost as dotted eighth, 16th, and 4 16ths instead of 6 triplet 16ths.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

nattyCT
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by nattyCT » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:21 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:16 pm
nattyCT wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:14 pm
Yes, video doesn't match sheet but I'm just interested in that double triplet part which is measure 6th, not 7th as you explain. What I'm trying to say is that if you listen to her, that part seems to be slower than what a double 16th triplet should take. Am I wrong with this feeling?
No you are not wrong. She takes almost a full quarter note more time to do it, it is played almost as dotted eighth, 16th, and 4 16ths instead of 6 triplet 16ths.
So how should I study it? Any suggestions?
Should I study it as I hear and without a metronome?

soltirefa
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by soltirefa » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:51 pm

I would probably put Nadja's video on slow and isolate the one measure in question and do it over and over until I "hear" it like she does it.

Look for the gear icon at the bottom of the YT video and then choose "speed" and select one slower than normal.

nattyCT
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by nattyCT » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:59 pm

It is not only one measure to be honest. This goes through the sheet. I'm currently studying as I hear it but it is not going well.

Tonit
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by Tonit » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:57 pm

Hi,
I would suggest, get what's written first without worrying about anything if you need to learn only from the sheet. Then adjust accordingly to the desired delivery (if it is Nadja's, then try to play to her performance).

It is a generally important concept: Isolate and shoot the problem you want to address before reintegrate it to the entire performance.

So, in this case, you will isolate and shoot it later.

robert e
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Re: Measure 6 timing of oblivion arr. by Nadja Kossinskaja

Post by robert e » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:21 am

As long as you are playing to the metronome, you'll have to put up with too-busy phrases, or leave out notes. Either way, I think it's probably important to maintain a triplet feel.

If I had to use a metronome with measure 6 I might try to replace the triplet notes with F E D D D C, with the D's tied (i.e., let that first D ring until it's time to play the C).

Once you're done with the metronome, you can add back the F A G bit and stretch time like she does to make room for all those notes. But you'll have a sense of the triplet feel swinging into bar 7.

That's not the only way, of course.

(btw, it sounds to me like she's starting that phrase one beat later than in Piazzola's original recording, and having to stretch the measure to fit it in.)

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